My Q&A's started as an idea to interview some of the memorable people I've met in fly fishing, both online as well as offline. Rather than a true interview I decided to keep it simple by asking a few Q&A's.
Charles and I finally got to meet up at the recent Dutch Fly Fair (I have no idea where the pictures of us together at the show are!) and planned a Zoom meeting shortly after.
1) Q: Why, when and how did you pick up fly fishing?
“Because my dad did, my father fished and I think if I'd not fished I would have he would have probably kicked me out of home. So yeah, I mean all my life ever since I can honestly remember I've been around fishing so and not just fly fishing I mean coarse fishing (Ed: warm water species found in the European waters) as well you know fishing for pike and tench.
He used to take me and that was the thing, I mean that's what's missing now is people just aren't taking youngsters. People just want to go fishing themselves they don't want to share that whole thing and it it's going to be a self-fulfilling prophecy if we're not careful because you know we were at the show last week (Dutch Fly Fair) and you know there weren't that many young people there.”
Isn’t the step from course fishing to fly fishing quite a big step?
“Not really, in those days there was no division. There was absolutely no division, you know we're talking about the mid 50s to late 50s, so that's 1950 not 1850 by the way, so yeah I mean it you did things seasonally so you fish for pike during say October-November probably November and you carried on until February.
March you didn't fish because they were starting to spawn and you respected that even though you could and then if you were lucky and you lived in Wales you'd start your trout fishing then. You know there was always a lot of fuss about the start of the of the opening of the reservoirs which were always that little bit earlier than the rivers so you know you had that.”
“Then something happened, we became a specialist...”
“I can honestly remember a time Jay when you had the river Test and other chalk streams opening at May, the first of May and start on the first of April like the (river) Itchen did. Then you'd fish through to September that was the trout season then you go into roach and you go into perch and then you but come 16th of June which is the start of our coarse fishing. I don't know many people didn't go tench fishing or carp fishing in my case tench so you did things seasonally and you, I think you made it made it more fun.”
You used to have magazines that were devoted to the various parts of angling you know, so you brought anything you'd have a piece on perch fishing and then right by the side of a trout fishing piece on cod fishing. I lived by the coast so I would go out cod fishing I'd go out fishing for flatfish but it made you enjoy. I really enjoy fishing, we still do it by the way, not as much but still do when I can.”
“I as far as I can recall Jay, I picked up a fly rod when I was around about six years of age and I just love the feel of it and I didn't know what I was doing, I still don't really.
But you know, I just started to use it and play with it and I thought I really like this, this feels really good. I was an only child so it was really, I suppose, it made life a lot easier because you could do something singularly. You didn't rely on a team sport, you didn't rely on brothers and sisters to be there to help you, you could go and play with a fly rod or you could go fishing on your own. So for an only child it was actually very good.”
2) Q: Every game has its heroes. Did you have someone in the fly fishing community who inspired you?
“I think they change from era to era, I think your heroes do change but I had so many. My father was a painter, he was a very fine artist and he used to do a lot of illustrations of books and one of them he did the illustrations for a thing called ‘Itchen Memories’ by (G.E.M.) Skues and I was with him when he used to do all his sketches just before they were the what we call the preliminary sketches to the original works. I didn't know him but I got to feel as I knew him (Skues).”
“But my hero, you know Jay, I've been so fortunate, I mean really fortunate in as much that dad took me to the various shows and I saw Charles Ritz cast, I was taught to fly cast by Frank Sawyer, you know he gave our first official lesson. I saw all these people Barry Wellerman or you know these are these were really defining gods of our sport in in the UK and elsewhere.”
“oh well you're just a kid, what do you know...”
“We didn't have that culture, you know the celebrity culture has only come about in the last what I think 20-odd years, I mean you know when we started celebrating people in the way that we do now, it's very very unusual and very endemic to this period.
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“So there are all sorts of people that have shaped who I am what I am and what I eventually became and to single out one is unfair because everyone that I came into contact with had an impression on me. But they were they were approachable Jay, they weren't ‘oh well you're just a kid, what do you know…’. They were ‘oh I'll show you this, I'll show you that’ and it's what I've tried to do last you know last weekend (at the Dutch Fly Fair).”
3) Since the 1980’s (I started fly fishing in 1982 at age 14) fly fishing has changed a lot. What are in your view the three most game changing developments in fly fishing?
“Carbon fiber for sure, (and) I think communication. Our levels of communication, suddenly what was once in books is now freely available to everybody. it's probably the single defining factor because in recent times what was once a niche thing is now a global thing. I think that's really, I think that's been the biggest change and to some extent the biggest damage, because all of a sudden things that all once secret aren't secret anymore.
So you know, unless you're very careful and I'm very careful about some areas I fish in Wales I don't put down where I'm fishing because if you on some areas you can actually follow exactly where I've been and get almost that same place. If I did that it would ruin that stream, not for me but for the people that I know so you've got to be really careful. So the very thing that's opened up our sport and become one of the most important things actually can be the most damaging.”
“I do miss Ollie (Oliver Edwards)...”
“Everyone's an expert now and that stuff you know it's just incredible that and I've got no problem with that, but you know I've there have been certain situations whereby people have less experience than perhaps they should have, have been dictating what we use and I think that that that's slight worry.”
Other than that obviously you've got all sorts of things in my era, you've got chemically etched hooks, you've got freedom a lot more materials available to fashion fly a different way of looking at it but a lot of that is down to again communication. If you think about it, it's Facebook, it's whatever, so you can bring all those together. So carbon fiber, media and that's one way of doing it and the opening up of angling opportunities globally.”
“…. I don't I don't think I've ever mentioned this I did a whole book's worth of illustrations for my first ever Hoffman cape. Okay right but it was original Henry Hoffman. It wasn't one of these great big things, it was a really small one tiny one that's how we used to grow them and I still got it today and I'm still using it and this is years ago. By the way the internet also took away the interest in reading books.”
“…biggest one, bless him wherever he's gone and I do miss Ollie (Oliver Edwards) is he never mentioned the fact that he was a left-handed fly tier taught by a right-handed person.”
4) Q: Your book ‘The Sotheby’s guide to fly fishing for trout’ was published in 1991. What was your goal when you decided to write such a monumental book?
“Well, it's commissioned to do it by Dorling Kindersley (publisher) and the brief was you know fly fishing, and Jay you know we're talking about the era of big budgets for books. I was really fortunate to work with Peter Gathercole (Ed: photographer of the book) and we had a budget to go.
We got in a car and we drove across Europe, filmed on the Traun (river in Austria) over two days, we travelled there one day filmed over two days and came back the next day. But that was covered in a budget. I don't know any books that would do that now.
We could go to the Traun and talk to Roman Moser and get the patterns that were working then and if you look at those patterns, I mean all I can see is mistakes in that book, that's the author for you. You look at some of the patterns there and they're still they're still valid today.
“... a fax machine and no one had them...”
“Alan was a catalyst for most of the original stuff that goes on because had he not brought Ollie together with Malcolm, with Roman Moser with many of the Swedish and Finnish and the Dutch tiers as well, you know we owe him a huge huge debt of gratitude actually.”
“Well the publishers actually made me put in a very expensive device called a fax machine and no one had them, I mean that's how long ago it was. Because they wanted stuff quicker than we could do it ordinarily, so it was a real game changer. The fact that it went into so many different languages and I was able to chat to people like Jim Teeny and all these Americans that I knew and I'd fished with which is really fortunate even in those days and got some really original stuff through and it's fantastic.”
On a personal note does this book launch you into some kind of stardom or what happened?
“I think it did Jay, I think I don't know if stardom is the right word but certainly it made me internationally noticed. You know so many people still come up and say this is the first book I started with this is the book that started it and there is no better or more thrilling thing than that. There really isn't actually.”
“If you help one person, if you just help somebody into a sport then you know it's basically a job done really. I mean I owe an awful lot to that book because up to that point and I think it even went into Afrikaans in South Africa when it was published.
Okay it was published in France, apparently one of the worst translations ever. It was published in America but under a different title, it was published in French Canadian you know so all of a sudden you know this little tiny person that was living in Kent, who just happened to love fly fishing and happened to write a bit suddenly got this world stage and it really was a game changer.”
“Oh I was, I mean I've written for the Times and I've written for the newspaper. You know a lot of it was down to not just me, it was a whole bunch of people that helped me along the way, I mean editors and goodness knows what and a lot of the credit must go to Peter Gathercole because had it not been for his sublime photographs it wouldn't have been the book that it was.”
But I'm just curious did you write it on a typewriter or did you write it on a notebook?
“No it was on a computer it's on a very old already computer. I think it was an Amstrad (Ed: A British computer brand from the 1980s) that shows your age you know.”
5) Q: As long as I can remember fly fishing had this label, certainly for newcomers, being a very difficult/complex and expensive sport as in so many technicalities, gear orientated approach (have you seen the number of different types of fly lines available these days!), etc. Aren’t we (both anglers as well as the ‘industry’) making fly fishing too difficult? Or is it really that difficult?...
“Yes! It's almost as though we put hurdles in the way of learning and getting into the sport, it's crazy. I think people are afraid because we've actually, everyone now is seen as an expert or a genius because you can make a film do anything you want, we know that.
Yet it's actually (fly fishing) shows like the Dutch Fly Fair, like other shows where you actually get up close and very personal to people that demystify the score. That's the still the validity of those types of shows because they can see someone like, I don't know Bas or myself or whatever. It is about doing that and that that's all it is and making sure that this thick stuff actually bends, this bendy thing called a rod, so it demystifies the whole thing whereas if you go into all kinds of media, everybody wants to make it out to be more difficult than it is because it makes them look bigger than they are, which sounds terrible but it's true!”
“I mean no one ever seems to catch a small fish anymore, no one! I think you should catch small fish, I think you should celebrate catching small fish, I think they're great but you know where is the value in that if you want to make it as a statement in the sport. So you're never going to put up your worst day, you're always going to put up your best day so and I understand all that I really do.”
“If anyone, anyone at all can understand fly lines then please… You know, for me they either float or they sink. And yes they sink quickly or they don't sink quickly. The next question is find a fly shop. Now to add to that level of difficulty, you've got people going out and trying to buy online. Now you've got not only got to know about AFTM numbers, you've got to know about grains, you've got to know about lengths of taper, you've got to know about this.
I won't say who it is, a manufacturer who is claiming this fly line, and I got it, and I said to someone I don't understand this… It's almost breaking my six weight and it's labelled a six weight and they tried it and they measured it and it weighed equivalent of a nine or a ten weight! Someone in good faith is going to buy that and they're going to say well I’ve got no use. What we need is honesty and simplicity, that's all we want from our fly line producers, that's it.”
“... no one ever seems to catch a small fish anymore ...”
“… I remember going out my first casting demonstrations were done with, I can remember it so vividly, a Daiwa C98 and it was all I could really afford at the time. There weren't many carbon rods around, so it was a C98 that I probably had a Cortland line on and I did all my casting demonstrations with that. I didn't see there was a need to change it to anything else but I learned my craft by adapting style, I didn't throw products at it. I just got out and practiced being better, I mean I could never attain what Paul Arden does and other people but you know I got reasonably good at what I did. It was done on that simple stuff that didn't cost much.”
“…. I always start Jay with threading up lines through rod rings, because if you can't do that you're not going to get very much further are you? I always point out that the furthest cast that you make, if you cast towards the far bank if you're on that far bank you'd be casting on the bank you're just trying to aim at, so you have to fish your own bank (first).
“…. when you're casting you don't know who's in that audience. A couple of people that came up to me hadn't really fished before you know yet they tried it a bit and they said it was helpful because now they understood certain elements of the cast like the line following the path the rod tip like you have to have the line to actually bend the rod doesn't matter.
One of the biggest problems we have is the fact that at the bottom of a rod there's a number or a couple of numbers and we always try and match that with a line but of course we don't know what the line is. So if it feels good in the hand if it bends the rod and to the way that's pleasant for you then you're going to get on better with it, so yeah we're simplifying it already”
“… maybe we both should (demystify fly fishing), maybe that should be our message.”
6) Q: Fly fishing as we know now, was invented on the British Isles. However, many monumental British companies of the past like Hardy and Partridge are no longer in British ownership. The American fly fishing industry now seems to drum the beat. What does this tell you?
“It's just a bigger audience to aim at, at the end of the day fly fishing isn't driven so much by passion as accounts. That's a very bold statement, but years ago I remember I joined a company called Sage and Don Green who had it at the time. His mantra not to sell to the multis like Bass Pro and LL Bean and all these others. He said, you know I remember when I worked for small companies and they require and rely on manufacturers to be honest and help them through the hard times and he made sure that they had product. It might not have been financially stable but that's what he did and that's how he started Sage and then of course things happen and then you know banks come in and employees need paying and all the rest of it and the whole paradigm changes.
“... maybe we both should (demystify fly fishing)...”
Now that you know they're multinational, just like everything else and there was a huge change I think in the millennium when you didn't just have one individual company like Partridge or Sage or Loomis or any of these others you had multi-conglomerates buying up small brands keeping their individual individuality because you know heck why wouldn't they.
You take Hardy, it's part of a massive thing called Pure Fishing now, so yes they might hold their identity and they might have some say over some of the product that goes out but essentially they're held by a holding company and that's been the game changer. It's been this instead of having niche minded niche operating almost, I don't know really just craft like operators.”
That is the way everything's gone, you can't blame the tackle industry necessarily for that because they've got to compete and they've got to make money because they've got people to pay but I do say I do miss that cottage industry, but I'm showing my age…
I really do admire a company like Scott for instance who have seemed to resisted change they're still creative and Thomas and Thomas another one. They're still holding good and a few real manufacturers like Ross and these others. Ironically I was at the Orvis store in Stockbridge today and you know Orvis for its multi-facets and dog beds and everything has stayed pretty true to fly fishing, whether you like them or not that they really have more than most.
The same with Sage you know they've got Reddington in their stable they've got Rio in their stable and a few other things but you know it's still quite a small brand and niche compared with many of the others. But the challenge is offshore, there's no question. And a hungry audience wanting stuff not happy with one fly rod, let's have 25!”
I wrote a little article for Pete Tyjas’ magazine Fly Culture. I wrote a little thing about sustainability in our industry. Fly fishing as a community, both fishermen and industry, should take care of our planet because if the planet gets wasted (Charles: “we're already there…”), there will be no fish in the rivers. However the tackle industry still continues to release new series of rods every three years. What’s wrong with the previous one?...
“It's called fashion and we're as caught up in it as everything else. Well can you name me a fish that you caught in the last two weeks that knew what rod you were using what line you were using you were using and what fly line you you're using? It doesn't matter. You can only use one rod at a time unlike the carp fishers that can use three I suppose, but it might be different.”
You could argue they were a PVC fly line, I mean what I should have done is gone to Airflo (Ed: Airflo lines are made of Polyurethane) where they don't have PVC… But it never caught on, people didn't like it because it didn't look like a fly line!”
7) Q: Unlike in the USA, here in The Netherlands fly fishing has become an ‘old man’s sport’ as the average age of members of fly fishing clubs are basically mid 50’s and up. What’s the situation in the UK and how could we get more youngsters into the sport?
“I'm doing my role with a thing called Fishing For Schools. What we do is quite simply, we just get people fishing, we don't make any distinction we don't say pick up a fly rod or anything else. We get them catching fish and then we introduce fly fishing in its very basic terms by taking them on a commercial fishery carp fishing with pellet limitations and it really does get the buzz going and they love the experience. There's been very very few people Jay that have taken fishing that haven't liked it.
So it's obviously there and I've said again and again and again until I'm blue in the face that you are not going to take over from a computer, you are not going to take over from the mobile phone. Get over that, they're not going to put those away but what you *can* do is give them an experience that's different to all those which is what we do.
“... you are not going to take over from the mobile phone”
So you have to think of the situation differently and get away from this fly fishing only, just take young people fishing. Get them inspired enough and then bit by bit you introduce you know bite sized chunks of the sport that you love. That way they'll either take it up or they'll go to carp or what have you, then you take them on to the club to nurture them on. But you've got to have the club with you, you've got to have all the all the processes in place for that to happen and few have.”
But there is there is a group of what I call ‘lifestyle fishers’ who really are much younger than we are, and just as keen and very very informed. So I've got some hope for the future.”
“Let's face it fly fishing was never huge anyway. I can't see it ever changing, but what we've got to do, all of us them ourselves everyone, is make sure that there's waters able for fish to survive in.”
In the US, due to the whole pandemic the rivers are getting crowded because so many people picked up fishing, fly fishing in our case, and this resulted in another situation.
“You know, that can be bad as well. They all catch and release and that's great and I’m fine with that, as long as people know how to catch and release properly. I've got a real problem, I mean a real problem, with people and you see really well-known anglers doing it, is holding fish up aloft the damage they're doing to that fish is extraordinary!
“I’m not impressed with somebody holding a fish up”
Even if they knew the most basic biology, they know that that fish has got to be in water to support its body mass. (The ‘Grip & Grin’ pictures on social media) it’s horrible! Why do they need to do it? I’m not impressed with somebody holding a fish up straight towards me so it looks bigger?... Always in a net or put back underneath water or something. I will never pose with one of those unless it's a dead fish from a reservoir which I’ll take to eat.”
8) Q: What is in your view the single most important skill to improve to become a better fly fisher(wo)man?
“ Oh blimey across the board, just casting. Because if you can have the best flies in the world you can have the best gear, if you can't get it to where you need it to go you're a bit stuffed aren't you really?
9) Q: What’s your favorite fly fishing destination and why?
“Oh damn it, this comes up every time, doesn't it?... I’ve got too many. If I was to where would I want to fish the most I think and I keep going back to Henry's Fork. I keep going back there well because it's so multifarious. I mean, Henry's Fork is different up at Harriman’s (Ed: also known as the Railroad Ranch) as it is down at St Anthony, it just alters and I’ve got the fondest memories of it.
I want to be in a time capsule enough to be able to get back and fish the evening rise on the Itchen actually, on the upper Itchen. So if I could spend my day by the sides or early morning fishing for trico feeders on, oh crikey I’m gonna throw another river… The Missouri which I love, you know I just love them all… I do!”
“I keep going back to Henry's Fork”
“Actually for different reasons, there are very few places that I don't want to fish again, and it becomes more apparent the older you get. I’m loving fishing where I am here in in south Wales. I mean I’m exploring new stuff and going to places I’ve never thought… My favorite water is the one I’m about to fish.”
10) Q: Describe your ideal fishing day (type of water, species, alone or with a friend, etc.)
“No, it'd always be with a friend and it would be someone I love. My ideal fishing day is actually with three friends, it's nearly an Englishman a Scotsman and a Welshman but it's with a dear friend of mine Rob Demon and dear friend Marshal Bissett. Marshall comes from Los Angeles but he's a Scott. We've been fishing together for almost 60 years and we (Rob and I) come from Kent but he now lives in Colorado, he's got his own stretch of river.”
“… we always learn, come up with a fly or someone will come up with a technique. Marshall is he's quite smart, he's always bringing out new rods and he's a complete gear junkie and trying out. We tease him about that and he's heavily into spey casting, so he brings out these trout speys and this nonsense and so we, you know, it's those three individuals and it's just fun.”
11) Q: What dish or food can we wake you up in the middle of the night?
"The smell of toast and marmalade, that is worth getting out of bed for! I can't eat meat, which is a great tragedy because you know had an operation, I can't eat it. I mean but the smell of toast is just right there, you can smell it so it would wake you up and you'd think oh yeah. It'll be the simple thing, it would be something like that and a nice cup of tea and I’d be a very happy man actually.”
“It'll be the simple thing...”
“… but we're back to you know what's wrong with one fly rod that gives you pleasure to use? I’ve got a little Guideline Fario nine foot (for a) four weight and it is the most exquisitely accurate dry fly rod I’ve ever used, I don't need another one!”
Not even an old English made split cane?
“… yeah not even old English split cane, no absolutely, not okay so low on my agenda. I started with those I remember how bad they really were. Everyone talks about oh that's wonderful, you put them in their hands and say yep so how wonderful was it for you and go god it's pretty terrible isn't it!...”
“… I don't think we've ever talked so much it's great, we ought to do this more often…”
Thank you Charles!
3) Q&A with Edoardo Scapin
4) Q&A with Hoagy Carmichael
5) Q&A with Jorge Trucco
6) Q&A with Per Brandin
7) Q&A with Jack Dennis
8) Q&A with Charles Jardine
9) Q&A with Christopher Rownes
10) Q&A with Leon Hanson
11) Q&A with Joe Messinger Jr.
12) Q&A with Mike Valla
13) Q&A with Larry Kenney
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