Boxing Day ties

A few Boxing Day ties...

Streamer fishing lesson with Kelly

Here's two footages of a day on the Madison fishing streamers with Kelly Galloup.

Me thinks he might know a thing or two about streamer fishing...

Q&A with Joe Messinger Jr.

My Q&A's started as an idea to interview some of the memorable people I've met in fly fishing, both online as well as offline. Rather than a true interview I decided to keep it simple by asking a few Q&A's.

Joe Messinger Jr. is one of those monumental names in fly fishing. I've been fortunate to call Joe a friend since 1994. I ‘ran into’ Joe in the early 90’s after reading his two articles he wrote in 1991 for (now defunct) American Angler magazine.

Joe is closely linked to his father’s pioneering work with deer hair flies, the Messinger Bucktail Frog being the most recognised fly. But also with deer hair trout flies like the Irresistable.

1) Q: So did your articles you wrote for American Angler magazine back in 1991 result in a lot of interest how to tie the flies your dad pioneered? 

“There was a few articles in some of the outdoor magazines, like Sports Afield or Outdoor Life or whatever, from the late 80s, I should say, probably from 1985, I don't remember exactly,  that they contacted me. But it probably wasn't until I went out to Mountain Home, Arkansas, to the First Federation of Fly Fishers Conclave that I had ever been to.

There were some fly tiers out there, you may be familiar with some of them. Did you ever know of Tom Schmuecker, who had a Wapsi Fly? Yeah, well, he was a really good fellow, unfortunately he passed away. But there were a group of fellows there that were bass fly tiers fellow named Jimmy Nix, Billy Munn and Dave Whitlock and a couple others that were curious about the frog.”

“It was always kind of a mystery, the fly tiers, how Dad mostly did the legs how he did that. How Dad tied the legs on the frogs, the system he used there. And they couldn't quite figure it out, they'd get some of these frogs and dissect them and try to figure out.

Well, (Jimmy) Nix somehow got my phone number and called, back in the 80’s, and they would get together to figure them out. Well, I just done a home made video on tying the frog. I sent him a copy of the old VHS video. And I don’t think anybody ever tried to tie the frog after that. The mystery was over…”

“... couple others that were curious about the frog ...”

“I wrote the articles in (American Angler) in 1991 and that didn’t stimulate a lot of people to get in touch with me necessarily. Those articles I wrote probably been copied and used. Well you mentioned Mike Valla’s book (The Founding Flies) there and he had copies of the articles so lot of the information he got was from that.

My objective really wasn’t to, I didn’t have any illusions about making a lot of money off of  fly tying. My dad died in 1966, he was 74. He was born in 1892 and he really pioneered a lot of things in fly tying. He was pretty well known, throughout the country and beyond. And people would kinda forgot about him. They even claimed some of the flies like the Irresistible as being their pattern. So that was about the only thing I hoped for and that worked pretty well. I think most people that are interested in tying deer hair (flies) know about dads.”

It shows people were curious how the frog was tied originally, but it’s still a lot of work no matter how you tie it.

“Haha I’ve often said I wished dad would originate something like an elk hair caddis, it would have life a lot easier for me. I wouldn’t have to sit down to three hours to tie a frog. But you have to kind of think back in time to maybe appreciate his creativity. You know all the information we have now on fly tying, that wasn’t there then. So it was just a product of his imagination and creativity.”

“... system he used is completely unorthodox”

“...as far as I know, you can’t say for sure, like Henshaw and a number of people tied with deer hair back even prior to dad. But they spun the deer hair on to separate the colours radially, they didn’t do that laterally. If you wanted a dark back and a light belly, they weren’t doing that. Of course, they do now with stacking. He figured that out and the system he used is completely unorthodox, it’s not anything like spinning of stacking deer hair. I think you probably understand kinda how I did that.

He started tying some resemblances of the frog, a deer hair frog, prior to World War 1. He was in the army during WW1 in France, when he got back, he had a war injury. That was the time he tied frogs in earnest there and no doubt they evolved. At least in the early 1920’s he was doing that, nobody else was doing that, separating colors laterally.”

2) Q: Everybody probably knows your father was Joe Messinger, so well portraited in Mike Valla’s excellent book ‘The Founding Flies’. Was (getting into) fly fishing for you as obvious as we might think?

“Well I was, I think most boys, like your son he’s a good fly tier already, tried to emulate their dad at least in the early ages. In your teens that’s different, you want to get out on your own. I can’t ever remember not tying some form of a fly, probably when I was 4 or 5 years old. Dad had a little shop in the basement of our house, just a corner of a basement, partitions off where he tied flies.

And I was down there all the time with him. Had a little desk there people would come to the house there to buy flies and I would move my desk out, had a door on the shop there. I set the desk up outside, right by the door and I'd tie flies, wind some feathers and hair on a hook.  And it looked much like a fly, yeah, at 5 or 6 years old. I'd see somebody coming, I'd beat it down the stairs and sit there and tell them they had to buy one of my flies for a nickel, before they could get in to buy Dad's flies. I think it's called extortion, I'm not sure…”

“... but I always tied flies, I'll be 80 here in January and still enjoy tying flies. I've got about 10,000 flies I don't really need more for myself. Yeah, I enjoy doing that but that's maybe an answer to your question.”

Did you ever, let's say, resent that your father was so good at tying?

“Yeah, probably not it was just something, it's an everyday part of your life I don't know how old you are before you really start. There's an old saying about when I was 16 years old I couldn't figure out how my dad could have lived so long and be so dumb. And by the time I was 21, I couldn't figure out how he got so smart in 5 years. He's just kind of mature, but I never thought my dad was dumb but I just, it was a thing.

The article I wrote about the frogs, I think I was 12 years old and he caught a really nice bass on a frog at a lake, it's a big lake but it's about 50 miles from our home. I guess that's the first I really thought of him as something other than just a thing he made and sold to make part of a living.”

“... and then he died when I was 22 years old and I don't know if I thought he was immortal or what But he had a lot of health problems. He was injured in the war, he had stomach troubles and he had ulcers and surgeries on that, but he always recovered. When he died, there was a loss of course a bad surprise. Because I'd see him get pretty sick off and on but then he recovered, he got back in time flies and all. So that's when it kind of set in that that was the end of his fly tying so I was the only one left.”

Did you feel obliged to continue your dad’s work?

“Yeah, I always wanted to I liked doing things with my hands I guess I got that from Dad. He did a lot of things other than fly tying. He did gunsmithing, he could take nothing and make something out of it. He was really talented mechanically, working on cars and I picked up on that from him.

After Dad died, I was going to college one year and he died, I had to work the next year I went back a year later. And just about starved to death I had no money, so I thought, maybe Dad always said well he always liked a little money to tie his flies. I tried, so that was a part of it trying to generate something there income wise.”

“... about starved to death I had no money ...”

“...but for the most part It was just something I wanted to keep alive that he did. I never had any delusions about making a lot of money. I never had made a lot, sell a few videos, sell a few flies but I built houses for a living.

There's a handful of people like Lefty Kreh and Dave Whitlock that has made a living just from fly fishing and tying flies. It's kind of like movie stars, for every big star there's a thousand others that are just struggling trying to make something.

And I guess I never really thought of it that way, I have a contract with Umpqua they tie the frogs. A good year I might make a thousand or twelve hundred dollars for the year, that's about it. It's a wonder that they still tie the thing because even in production time it takes a long time. But I've had the contract for probably thirty years.”

3) Q: We both have been in this sport for a long time. What are in your view the three most game changing developments in fly fishing?

“I think graphite fly rods would have to be number one. Do you fish bamboo or have you ever fished a bunch?”

I fish all three, I enjoy fishing with graphite, fiberglass, as well as bamboo 

“Well, when I was growing up really Bamboo was about it. A few companies, they've even made some steel, true temper made some steel fly rods. They were pretty bad, even being steel, the action was very slow. My understanding of the of the genesis of fiberglass rods Was that during World War II they made Whip-head handlers for jeeps. For radios, you know, on jeeps and on military equipment.

And some GI was looking at them and thought, you know, that looks like a fishing rod so they cut one of them off and put some guides on it. I don't know if that's absolutely true or not but it sounds reasonable. I know you really didn't see much about fiberglass rods until the 1950s there somewhere I think, perhaps the late 40s I'm not sure.”

“... like Leonard, Dickerson and Payne ...”

“But, you know, the bamboo rods, especially after World War II there was a whole plethora of Bamboo rods that were made in Japan they just weren't very good. Just the handful of rod makers here in this country, you know, like Leonard, Dickerson and Payne and so on made really good quality rods. Even Orvis then, they were pretty small business back then.

The graphite rods, I think everybody has, I know there's a lot of people that are dedicated to bamboo fly rods and that's fine, I certainly appreciate the craftsmanship in them. The amount of work that goes into them and the beauty of them, but in my opinion they're fairly limited as to what you can do with them.”

“I have an old South Bend Bamboo rod, it's a nine foot rod for an eight weight line that dad bass fished with and I restored it here some years ago. I live on about a 14 acre lake and it's good bass fishing. I thought, well, I'll take this thing down and see how it casts and after being accustomed to fishing with graphite I was amazed at how slow it was. You really had to slow your cast stroke down. Yeah, you could make a back cast eat a sandwich before the line straightened out It seemed like. But there again, that's what I grew up with.

Dad did some rod repair, he didn't build fly rods from scratch. People would bring, you know pretty much all bamboo rods back then were three-piece rods. Some two-piece rods but some bring one in and the mid-section was a broken deal. They weren't good rods and I'd say, well, I can't do anything with that and they'd say, well, throw it away or do whatever you want.

“... I really didn't have a graphite rod until probably 1990 ...”

Well, we'd keep the pieces and finally give enough of a variety of rods where we had three sections that were okay and put new ferrules on them and guides. That's what we had for fly rods. I have one here that has my name on it, Dad wrote it in 1956. So I was 12 years old then. That's all I had but I really didn't have a graphite rod until probably 1990, I had some fiberglass rods.”

“But anyhow, I'd say I started out with the graphite rods and, well, the media information that we have now, The videos on YouTube and what not about fly fishing and casting instruction and all that didn't used to be. If you didn't know somebody who was pretty good at fly casting 50 years ago you could read a little bit about it but it was a lot more difficult to try and learn. Ignorance is bliss you'd think, well, you're doing okay but in comparison I think that's made a big difference In developing fly fishing, fly casting and what not.”

“...the other thing I think is access to fishing destinations. You know, I've been at this for a long time so I've kind of seen the evolution of it. Even at Dad's time you know, now we're fishing in in West Virginia, let's say you get on an interstate in your 300 horsepower car and drive down to a stream somewhere an hour and a half or two hours away. The evening you get back in the car and maybe you've got to drive a country road for a little while.”

“...well, back at Dad's time to go somewhere that was 100 miles away was an all-day trip because dirt roads, old cars. You had probably three flat tires on the trip and it wasn't that you just get out open the trunk and change the tire. You had tire tools you had to get out, take the tire off the rim and put a hot pack on the tube put everything back together.

“... a trip to New Zealand or whatever would be like going to Mars ...”

So, it was a trip and conversely, you didn't just go and stay for a couple hours and then turn around and come back. You know, you stayed all week there so you learn more in a shorter period of time than if you just make a few trips and fish a little bit in the evening.”

“But also, you know, I didn't see there wasn't anybody offering fishing trips to Belize or Christmas Island. Even within the country, mostly If you lived in the eastern part of the United States you didn't get out west very much. Not very many people did certainly some, but it was mostly the New England states fishing in Maine, Vermont or New Hampshire you know, that was a big trip for you.

But now, with all the information about other areas and other destinations in the world that are available. They're reasonable you can go and plan a trip and go to Cuba fishing for bass or whatever.”

“...well, you know, sometimes I realize how old I am but sometimes, if somebody talks about 1970 it doesn't seem very long ago. It was 53 years ago and I forget that sometimes. But even back then, you know a trip to New Zealand or whatever would be like going to Mars, pretty much.

In the variety of fly rods that are made from graphite there's a whole plethora of them where there didn't used to be it probably started out with trout rods. But the information that's available that you can learn about not only fly fishing, but other places and the ability to go to those places.”

4) Q: Same question but in fly tying.

“I think materials are the biggest thing, all the synthetic materials they have now. That weren't available, you know really, I don't know, 30 years ago or so. That's changed things quite a bit.

And not only that, but there again the information, books and the videos out there, you can look on YouTube and find just about any fly you want to tie with instruction, and it's well done.

Before, we bought fly time books and some of them weren't very good and you try and follow it. But when you can watch somebody do something and stop it and go back I think that's helped an awful lot with fly tying.

As far as learning but the time materials that makes a big difference. But anyhow, I don't know if that's a very good answer.”

5) Q: Describe your ideal day of fishing? Destination, species, alone or together with someone.

“I would say I have always enjoyed float fishing. You know, on a pretty river or even out in the boat on a bass lake. At this point in my life, I've got some back troubles that doesn't allow me to wade a stream anymore. But even when I was young a few times out west and even back here, some of the smallmouth streams we used to fish, we'd take a john boat and sometimes camp overnight, go halfway down through a section of river. But a float trip on a good river, either trout fishing or bass fishing would probably be my favourite thing to do.”

“...not that I didn't like wading streams, but you covered so much more territory in a float fishing trip. Some say, well yeah, you pass up a lot of trout. Well, some people are under the impression that trout or bass for that matter are just clear throughout the stream. As you know, that's not true. There are certain things that are an attraction for fish. If you don't know those places if you're not that familiar, then you may fish some dead water all afternoon and wonder why you're not catching anything. Where somebody a half mile downstream is doing pretty well.

So a float trip allows you to cover enough water, yeah maybe you pass over some trout or fish, I should say. But you also have the opportunity to fish places where there are fish holding. That changes with the seasons and a lot of variables there so that works pretty good.”

“I always enjoy fishing with a friend, It's a little different feeling when you're fishing alone. But with a friend you can swap ideas and companionship, that's a big part of it I think. Sitting and watching the stream and talking about how to swap some ideas, but also fishing alone, a little different feeling there.

My dad would always, he was fishing with somebody He always wanted to make sure they had the advantage if it came to maybe a place to fish on a river. Or if he knew there was a water somewhere.

“... often kind of daydreamed about going to Labrador”

He would always put them there and I guess I picked that up on him and I get a lot of pleasure out of doing that If I can help somebody. Maybe I'm familiar with something they're not so I get pleasure out of that.

When you're alone, you don't have that part of it so maybe you're thinking a little bit more about tactics. Or maybe trying to learn a little bit more about why this isn't working and so on. So it's a little different thing but either way, I like fishing with somebody or I enjoy fishing alone too.”

Did you do a lot fishing with your dad?

“Oh yeah, we did a lot of that here in West Virginia. Dad never got very far from home, or at least the home state. Some people find that hard to imagine in fishing in Montana, Wyoming, up in Canada. I remember when I was pretty young, he went on a trip to New York fishing and he might as well have been going to New Zealand I thought that was really something. 

But we fished a lot here. In his later years, he had a war injury he walked with a cane. He was 52 when I was born. I remember going hunting and fishing with him when I was maybe 10 or 12 years old I was old enough to be able to get around pretty good, not just a little kid paddling along. He never seemed to get tired. He had a real graceful walk with the cane, it really kind of helped him wade in streams he had a wading staff with him all the time. 

As he got up into his late 60s It was more difficult for him so he fished a lake here in West Virginia called Spruce Lake. it's a 25 acre trout lake and it's right down from the highest point in the state which is nearly 5,000 feet. Which isn't so high, but pretty high for here.  He and I fished Spruce Lake a lot. We'd go up and camp over and stay a couple days and just fly fishing. By then, which was in the 50s you saw more spin fishing but we did a lot of that. It was fun camping and catching fish too.

I think the last time I fished with him I was about 20, 21 years old there and we went up to Spruce Lake. He died the next year. He always went fishing on his birthday, which was June 18th.

“... You could smell it”

He died in 1966, he went up to Spruce Lake He went by himself, I don't know why. He went by himself and stayed overnight and fished on his 74th birthday. He passed away that September so he's doing pretty well. But to answer your question we fished a lot together.”

6) Q: Which food or meal can we wake you up in the middle of the night?

“Probably not too likely to wake up in the middle of the night to get something to eat but I have a few times. Oh, maybe then I don't know what the middle of the night would be if it's 3 o'clock in the morning I'm probably not going to get up I don't care a lot. But I remember at some of the fishing camps I was at maybe somebody at 5 o'clock in the morning was cooking something breakfast or some sort. You could smell it and I never have been real particular about food but the smell of bacon and eggs, something like that would be a pretty good incentive for me to get up.”

“Are you familiar with buckwheat cakes by any chance? They're like pancakes but there's buckwheat, It's similar to wheat. But it's a little different and it makes for a real thin pancake. The way they mix it up they use it with buttermilk and what not. It has just a little bit of a sour taste to it. I always had an affinity for those things. So I'd probably get up you know, if it was earlier in the morning, not there again at 2 or 3 o'clock I don't want somebody to be cooking in.”

“...it really isn't a high priority I've always thought I'll eat about anything I can get my mouth to an extent. Onions don't like me, they upset my stomach. But I can't think of too much else. Or real spicy food, I sort of inherited Dad's, not very good stomach. I don't have ulcers but I had trouble with acid reflux and what not so I kind of take it easy on some of that stuff. But that's about all.”

7) Q: Final question. Where would you fish if it was the last time you would be able to fish?

“I often thought about I have had the opportunity to fish around this country, a little bit in Canada. And that's about the extent. I never went to any exotic places fishing. I never did get to fish in New England so I always used to read about that. In the videos I've watched about fishing in Labrador for the big brook trout, either in lakes or streams.

We have native brook trout here of course but a big native brook trout would be 14 inches long. The majority of them are 5 or 6 inches or smaller in the little streams. I couldn't imagine catching an 8 or 10 pound brook trout, because of the way they fight and so on.

“... keeping in touch for all these years means a lot”

So I've often kind of daydreamed about going to Labrador and fishing for big brook trout If I knew that was going to be my last fishing trip and I had an option there going that's probably what I'd say.”

“...not to say the other places I've been fishing out west there in Yellowstone and in areas out in Wyoming, Montana and Idaho for the trout. Also fished South Georgia for largemouth bass and I enjoyed that too. We were fortunate my son and I got an invitation to go to a plantation down near Savannah, Georgia. It's called the Ford Plantation, Henry Ford owned it back in the time. It was a southern rice plantation during the Civil War and that's what they were feeding a lot of the Confederate troops.

Henry Ford has a lot of lakes on it. It's a golf course now which I didn't care about because I don't play golf. But it had some really big bass in the lakes. Jody, my son and I got an invitation to go down and fish and we did and that was something. Catching really big bass, you know, in the 10 pound range.

But if I only had one choice If I was capable of doing it, I'd go to Labrador for brook trout.”

You being Joe Messinger's son it's simply just how it is and it's something we should all remember rather than just saying, oh, it just happened, you know?

“… Well, I never tried I never had any very guaranteed piece of work delusions what I've done is pretty much just been copying things that Dad did which isn't a bad thing. I got pretty good at it, I will say that but I realise he's one that created all this stuff. He figured it out and about everything I've done it's been sort of to honour him. I hope with the flies I’ve tied people like okay.”

“Well, somebody said one time the only thing I really do anymore is the history we haven't yet learned and that may be true to an extent but like Mike's (Mike Valla) book there I started out reading just about Dad and that stuff. And then when I went back and read the whole thing, I found that there were names that I knew of but I didn't really know much about the people. But I thought it was a really good book.”

“And you know, my son Jody Is a good fly tier. He's 45 years old now and I took him with me to a number of fly tying conclaves and shows when he was really young. I think we went up to New Jersey, I think it was called the International Fly Tying Symposium. That was about three years ago and then, do you know who Chuck Furimsky is? Well, he has a fly tying reunion at Seven Springs in Pennsylvania, a ski resort down there It's only about, I don't know, 65 miles.

“... at my age it doesn't look too far forward ...”

But every year he has a reunion for people that have tied to his fly tying events and invites everyone. Every year, it's usually in April. But, you know, my son, my daughter, neither one of them have any kids and I don't think they ever will. When our time's up, Jody, there won't be any more Messinger signing the flies that Dad originated, but I hope that we've done something to encourage others.”

Joe, our friendship has continued since the early 90s and I hope we can continue it for many years

“Well, yeah, at my age it doesn't look too far forward but I've always thought I'm fortunate to have a friend like you even though we've never met. In the early days I remember you sent me a trout fly. I think I was not feeling very good and you sent me a trout fly and said I hope this makes you feel a little better. And that was special, that meant a lot to me.”

“And the fly you have sent me you know, you're a great fly tier and I don't use that term loosely, you know over the years I've gotten to know a lot of people with tying flies. And they're good fly tiers and there are some that are just a cut above everybody else and I think you fit in that category. The Humpies you sent me, I don't think I've ever seen a better Humpy. But you certainly are a talent but besides that, I appreciate you thinking of me and keeping in touch for all these years means a lot.”

“I really appreciate your interest all these years in the flies, and in me. It means a lot to me, Jay and I sure look forward to whatever time's left there for me I hope to be able to talk to you, of course, going with you again. And if there's anything I can do to help you with this or anything else, please let me know.”

Thank you Joe

My other Q&A's:
1) Q&A with Chris Barclay
2) Q&A with George Minculete

3) Q&A with Edoardo Scapin

4) Q&A with Hoagy Carmichael

5) Q&A with Jorge Trucco

6) Q&A with Per Brandin

7) Q&A with Jack Dennis

8) Q&A with Charles Jardine

9) Q&A with Christopher Rownes

10) Q&A with Leon Hanson

11) Q&A with Joe Messinger Jr.

12) Q&A with Mike Valla

Alpaca Dun

So some time ago my friend Tsutomu Tanaka sent me some Alpaca dubbing. I like the gingery shade of the dubbing. Alpaca dubbing is very coarse. Alpaca fibers are hollow, so great for dry flies.

You do need to use dubbing wax (I use Overton's Wonderwax) to make the coarse dubbing work along.

'Alpaca Dun'

Tail: Dark barred ginger spade hackle
Body: Alpaca dubbing
Wings: Dun hen hackle tips
Hackle: Dark barred ginger

The curious case of Fifty Degrees

Seemingly the first mention of Fifty Degrees was in the article about fishing in the Catskills in the 1946 issue of Fortune magazine. This pattern was devised by Jim Deren, the owner of the famous Angler's Roost fly shop in the Chrysler Building in New York City.

"The shop was, I believe, a converted apartment with about 3 rooms. The "front room" was his shop and you sometimes had to climb over a couple boxes of waders, etc. to get to the counter. Once there, Jim would put down his cigarette and help you find some really neat stuff. His back room had a closet full of bamboo rods, most in terrible shape."

"The Angler’s Roost is a walk-up apothecary shop specializing in relief of the fishermen’s malady. You have to sidle in, then turn sideways to the left, then sideways to the right, then drop your left shoulder, and then move up to the counter. Yesterday’s mail, and the day before’s, and the day before the day before’s mail is piled there and you are standing in the most incredible disarray of angling equipment that could possibly be imagined.

It is a veritable angling kaleidoscope. Creels and boots, rods and reels, and flys and flashlights and knives and books and lines and ointments and oils and wings and beaks and barrels full of feathers and behind the counter, always in a kind of soft, reposing anger, is Jimmy Deren, reading something." "… ‘And I’d like some hooks. I’d like some #10’s, extra long shank." ’And what do you want those for?’ Jimmy growls like a dog at his bowl. "Well, I thought I’d tie some nymphs." ’you don’t want that kind of hook. Here’s what you want." And again without moving, Jimmy tosses a little packet of hooks on the desk with ‘ten-n’ neatly printed on the packet. You call out the rest of your order while being growled at and corrected on each item until you’re done.

I remember once trying to buy a flashlight he had in the glass case on the wall. ’You don’t want that goddam thing,’ he said. ’It’s not worth a damn.’ And no matter how much I pleaded, he wouldn’t sell it to me. So this is Jimmy Deren, old rooster, who badgers, reprimands, instructs and cajoles every customer who sidles into the Angler’s Roost. The old rooster who sits there with his thinning crewcut comb, making noises at you deep in his throat, and you love every minute of it because you know you’re talking to Jimmy Deren." "… And when you leave you know you’ve visited an oracle – and as you are leaving he calls out in sounds you almost mistake for his clearing his throat – ‘Have fun!’…" Woods Hole, MA USA"

Fifty Degrees is also mentioned in Ray Bergman's book Trout (first published in 1938). My copy of the book is from 1959. There was a revision of the book in 1952. So was Deren's Fifty Degrees already in the original 1938 edition or included since the revision?...

Several people have confirmed that Fifty Degrees appeared in Trout with the 1952 revision:

"...the 1938 1st edition had 16 plates. Since the Jim Deren patterns were on plate 17 of the 52’ edition, I believe they were added in later editions."

"My copy from 1943 does not mention it"

From 1946 issue of Fortune magazine (illustrations by John Atherton):

Ray Bergman's book Trout:

War on Yellowstone lake trout

This video tells so well how huge the decline was of Yellowstone cutthroat trout by the appearance of lake trout in Yellowstone lake around 1994.

I remember so well the difference of fishing in the Yellowstone river was. My first time in 1992 one could catch as many cutthroats in the Yellowstone river as one could. Next time I fished (1996) it was almost like someone turned the light switch off... Fishing in the Yellowstone river was so bad the years afterwards I didn't even bother driving to Yellowstone Park anymore.

A few pictures from the summer of 1992 and the wonderful days on the Yellowstone river.

By the way, obviously I don't take pictures of fish out of the water anymore 🫢

Masterclass on running a business and a bit on what makes trout take your fly

I'm always amazed how right on Yvon Chouinard is with his ideas about running a business. He even says some spot on things about fly fishing! Together with his long time friend Craig Mathews they are a wealth of life wisdom and plain inspiring.

Listen to this podcast where they both talk about the direction fly fishing is heading, why we need to take care of our planet, what one needs to understand when running a business and even some pointers why predators (like trout) take your fly. And it's not the pattern.

Listen to the podcast here.

Blue Collar Hackle

Gave the capes a quick wash. The barbs are still a bit moist but the results look absolutely amazing. What I really like is that the hackles aren't as small (size16 and smaller) as the genetic hackles. These hackles are rather predominantly size 14 up to size 8 and larger. Perfect for Catskill dry flies!

Oh these Blue Collar Hackle capes were $15 and $20 a cape. That's the best value I've ever seen!

Atherton #4, tail and hackle used from the light grizzly cape

Rod maker James Reid

Haven't handled the bamboo rods James Reid makes, mainly two handed rods, but I like the reason he makes his rods.

After you've gone

One of those videos that makes you think...

Streams of Heritage

A wonderful tribute to the Catskill fly fishing & tying tradition

Tying Humpy at Anchored Outdoors

I'll be tying at April Vokey's Anchored Outdoors website this coming Monday Nov 6, 2023.

To join, sign up at Anchored Outdoors where there are tons of masterclasses on tying, fishing and more.

Update Nov 7, 2023:

Q&A with Leon Hanson

My Q&A's started as an idea to interview some of the memorable people I've met in fly fishing, both online as well as offline. Rather than a true interview I decided to keep it simple by asking a few Q&A's.

Leon Hanson has been building bamboo rods for more than 45 years. Yet he is only known within a small group of people who search for the best casting long & light bamboo rods.

 

Leon is acclaimed as a highly innovative maker, both in tapers as well as perfecting the hollow building technique. His rods seems to defy logics what can be done with bamboo. 

There's barely any information about Leon and his rods. So, I thought I need to contact Leon so people can read about his history and his ideas about bamboo rod making. Our Zoom talk was really enjoyable, we could have talked for hours on end. So without further due, let's talk with Leon!

 

1) Q: When & how did you pick up fly fishing?

“This is the town of Plymouth, Michigan. It's west of Detroit, about 30 miles. In the same town, except for when I worked in Alaska and whatever, moved around a little bit.”

“... when I was in seventh grade in 1956, my cousin gave me a spinning rod and I was reading in Field and Stream about fly fishing in Ted Trueblood's articles. So I wanted a fly rod, so I took the guides off of it and put fly guides on with my mother's sewing thread. And then the neighbor guy gave me a fly reel for picking potatoes in the yard, in the farm.

So I put that on and I bought a line from the dime store for 39 cents. And it was way too light of a fly line, but it's what I had. And it was one of those kinds that were enameled. I don't know if you're familiar with those and the enamel breaks on them. So there's nylon, a nylon braided tube. So that's what I ended up with a fly line. I could cast about 20 feet.

And in a pond, I caught bluegills, you know, and that got me started. And William Blades had a book out on how to tie flies at our local library. And our library was a house in town. I mean, it was a little town, you know. And the neighbor guy had chickens. So I ended up asking for chicken feathers.

And he says, if you kill them, you can have all the feathers you want, but you'll butcher them for me. So I did a brown one and a white one for them. And so I had fly tying stuff. And the hooks were from the dime store, and it was a little round tin from Pfluger with a whole bunch of different sized hooks in it. And they were really junky hooks. But, you know, I used those for, yeah.”

“... if you kill them, you can have all the feathers you want”

“And there were five or six farm ponds within a mile or a couple of kilometers of my house. So I went and played on those a lot. I mean, a lot. So that got me started. Later, after I got to be like in 14, we would ride our bikes to different ponds and fish after school. 

Or in the summertime, after I got done with work, either the neighbor's farms or my parents. And we ended up, there were bass and bluegills in all of them. And I could catch some nice bass on flies and on lures, you know, and on worms.

We fished every way we could to be successful. You know how kids are. They'll do anything to make it work, you know. And after I got to be about, let me see, I was 16. I bought a Shakespeare fly rod at the local sporting goods store. And that started the real fishing, you know. It was an 8.5 foot 6 weight. Well, HDH or HCH, you know, old numbers. And I ended up giving that to my cousin. I wish I would have kept it, kind of. But, you know, you don't need everything.”

“Well, then I fly fished a lot, and then I ended up fishing for salmon and steelhead and everything. But I liked fly fishing in the summertime because there was none of those fish there. So I started buying blanks from E. Hille (Ed: now closed) in Pennsylvania and making, this is before graphite, okay, fiberglass fishing rods, fly rods.

And I made lots of them. I mean, I would buy a dozen blanks at a time, you know, and they were cheap, like seven bucks. So you could make a lot of them for relatives and stuff for 20 bucks, and you were coming out a little ahead, you know. And then I was married. I had a child.”

2) Q: Why did you decide to build bamboo rods?

“I went to a fly show called the Bamboo Fly Rod Revival in Detroit, Michigan, in 1977. Hoagy Carmichael was there with his book. So I bought one of the books, and they were 39 bucks, and I thought that was an awful lot of money for that book.

But it started a lifetime of playing with bamboo. And the first rod I made was a seven-foot 4 weight with two butts and two tips. Well, actually, there were two rods that I could switch every which way, you know. And one of them was like a Leonard Duracane seven footer taper, and the other one was a 202E taper from Garrison. And I could fish with them. In fact, I got that brown up there on it the first summer I fished. Can you see it? That was 8 pounds 14 on a dry fly. Yeah, it was really fun.”

“It (bamboo) was not really cool at that point. I mean, it was like an outdated style. And the local Orvis store had one that I really thought, oh, I would love to have one of those. But I couldn't afford it. I didn't want to afford one. Graphite was nice, but it didn't cast as nice.

So I thought, well, I'll start making some. And it took me a year to collect all the stuff, you know. And I already had a lathe. So I thought, well, I'll start making them. And I had been buying all these old bamboo fly rods as a young man at garage sales and whatever. And I had a couple of Paul Young's. I had a Dickerson, a Gene Edwards. And then I bought a Philipson. And those ended up, some of those cast nicer than my graphites to me.

“But I couldn't afford it...”

So I thought, okay. And I sold one of the Paul Young's and a nice reel that I had bought for enough money to buy a planing form from Hoagy Carmichael the next year. And then that really got me going, you know. And at that point, then, that's where you saw the seven foot rods come out of the house.

My wife actually went to Florida on a vacation with the kids and her mom. And I got the planing form while they were gone. And when they came home, I went upstairs to say hi, and I went right back downstairs. And she was kind of like “uh…. I don't like this life”. But it turned out to be good. I made a few every year for myself. And occasionally, I would sell one when somebody wanted one. And to be honest, they're okay, but they're not great.”

3) Q: Your long rod making career seems to have two distinct era’s. On your website you mention that Per Brandin’s support changed your thoughts about rod designing. Please elaborate.

“The first five years, the mechanics of the build, I had good glue joints, I had good reel seats and all of that stuff. But I could not build a taper that I absolutely loved for a while. And I kept on modifying.

And finally, I hit one, an eight-foot four weight that I absolutely loved probably 10 years into making. And that became the rod of choice for me. And I fished with it literally all over the United States. Well, the West Michigan, you know. I fished down in Ohio once. I fished in Pennsylvania with it. But mostly in Michigan and some in the West Yellowstone area, okay?

Tom Clark had a camp on the east fork of the Gallatin, I think it was, in Belgrade. And I was invited to fish with him out there for a few days. And Per Brandin showed up. And he goes, Leon, you should make this rod hollow. And I said, I don't know. Tom Clark had a couple of his rods. And Per and I ended up becoming very close friends.

 

“Leon, you should make this rod hollow...”

 

In fact, I talked with him last week. And he said, you should make this hollow.  Eh, I don't want to bother. Because I like it the way it is, you know? And then about a month later, we were talking, and he goes, well, what do you mean? Did you start yet? Hollowing?

So once a month like that for a year… And then I said, okay, I'll start. So I shut down the process that I was making them, basically spent a year designing a hollow work and making them. And it took me three tries to make it work. And then we shared tapers between Per and I on an 8.3ft 4' weight. In two spots, they were different. Everything else was the same. So our thoughts on taper and that feel is pretty close. And at that point, then, it kind of launched me. It was about 2010. Somewhere in there.”

Just for my reference, building was basically a hobby. What did you do for a living?

“I'm a former school teacher.”

“... at that point in time, there were quite a few people that liked my old solid fishing rods. So as fast as I could make, I would sell them. And most of them were, in fact, all but a few, were 8' and under. And they were, some of them were pretty nice. But they were solid. And I kept wanting a longer rod that was light.

And Per opened the window. Man, did I go through it. And then I, actually, he invited me to go to Nelson Ishiyama (Ed: owner of the Henry’s Fork Lodge in Last Chance, Idaho). Nelson has a fishing rod show (Ed: bamboo fly rod meeting), kind of by invitation. Well, I went there the first time. I had, I don't know, five or six fishing rods. Nelson bought two. Another guy bought one. And I got to take one home or two home, you know. And one of them was a 7'9", two piece, three weight. And I had different, I had lightened the guides. They're light, really thin wire. And they have very little thread holding them up. The wire weighs the same amount as the thread and finish.

So, if you can shrink that down, you take weight off, you know. And I had one with a regular set of guides and one with the lightened guides. Nelson said, I have to have that rod. So, he took it, you know. And that was the start of not only hollow, but lighter fittings and things.”

4) Q: Your rods are especially known for being long & incredibly light weight, something most of us have never thought could be made from bamboo. Do you think the envelope of what can be done with bamboo be pushed even more?

“Right now, I have a nine foot, three piece, three weight. It weighs 3.3 ounces (...). And it casts nice at 10 feet and nice at 60 feet, you know. And to me, you have to have a rod that casts so that it's a fishable rod like that. You know, you can't just have a stiff rod that you can cast long. You got to be able to fish short and precise, too. I'm working on eight-and-a-half-foot three-piece five-weights now.”

Per once said that he wanted to try to, let's say, emulate the graphite characteristic using bamboo. Obviously, that was his motivation to push the envelope. But I think your motivation to make the longer and light rod is probably different, or was it also the same?

“No, it was to cast a line. Let me see. How do I say? Straight, flat, into the wind, and you can control the distance without thinking about it. And the rod that you have does that, at least I think it does. Yeah, I still need to fish it, but obviously, when casting, I just wonder how is this possible? Yeah, it kind of is.”

“I mean, I was very fortunate to meet Per, and then at that point, I ended up, I think, pushing the envelope in papers and the fittings a little more than Per did. He introduced me to it, but I think I pushed it a little bit more. Because he was still using tube tips on the tip tops, and I showed him my little tiny pieces, and he goes, oh, what a great idea. And I said, it's not my idea, because I have an F.E. Thomas from 1910 that's made like that. It's got a wire tip top. I took it and pushed it to, because the wires on the side of that tip are like an inch and a quarter long, you know, so I pushed the envelope.”

Are your tips hollowed all the way to the tips?

"Well, as close as I can get to them. On an eight weight, they're within an inch. On a three weight, they're about four inches or so. Because they're so... Somewhere in between.”

Because you obviously have no material left at the tip.

“That's right. And I think that when you design a rod, if the, when the rod is lightly loaded, the bend of the rod with the weight of the line should be a true smooth curve, not stiff with a straight line. That makes the rod really...”

Have you tried making parabolic action rods?

“Paul Young, I went to Paul Young's store. I knew the family, okay, because I'm not too far from there, half an hour from the store on Grand River. And I didn't realize how famous he was when I was a kid. It was just a store.

Well, I ended up with a (Paul Young) Para 15, and if you held your little finger, grasping the rod like this, and put your finger out on the rod like that, and cast it, so that this became stiff all the way from here to here, for me, it cast way better than it did flexing there.

“... it casts nice at 10 feet

and nice at 60 feet...”

Okay. So, I thought, okay, I got to make my rod so that they don't do that, you know? But you want the rod to feel the cork in your hand. So, you have to have a little bit of bend there, but not a lot. So, you can increase the line speed. So, they're a progressive, but they're a little higher line speed rod, generally speaking, than some. You can cast them pretty good into the wind. And durability, one of my clients has got an eight-foot three-weight two-piece, and I know he has gotten over 5,000 fish on it, and it's still mostly straight, which is delightful.”

“I mean, how far can we go? Well, if I make the walls thinner than I am now, they tend to collapse. So, that part, I don't think so. If there is a lighter wire, yeah. I've made some reel seats. You have a reel seat, and that reel seat with the metal weighs about 0.4 ounces. I have made some, and there's a picture of them, I think, on my website, of a reduced reel seat foot. That one weighs 1.5 ounces.”

You basically just left out the wood spacer just the blank

“And it's smaller in diameter, too. And it's barely big enough to hold the reel, but it does. Whether people like that visually, that's a different question, obviously, but yeah. Well, one of my clients said, Leon, that looks like a crippled guy with a shoe on. And I said, you know what? You're right, it does. However, when he showed up at Nelson's, and he goes, you know, I want one of those. I didn't think it looked good. But when you see it in your hand, and you use it, it's really a nice reel seat.”

It looks like one of those Mike Montagne's rods.

“Yes, it does kind of look like his stuff. However, his has got a lot of metal on it. The metal weighs. It's surprising how fast it adds up. I used a screw lock, aluminum one, and made it as light as I could. And it started out as a reel seat that was made by F.E. Thomas. And I modified it. And it still weighed a half an ounce. Now, that's way more than I wanted, you know? I'd rather have the reel have the weight instead of the rod. In fact, have you seen the reduced, no, the foot on a Hardy Barton Dry fly reel? Have you seen one of those feet?”

I don't recall it specifically

“Just a minute. I might find one. Can you see what it does? Yeah, it's a-symmetrical. And it moves the reel up under your hand even more. That ends up changing the casting dynamics of a fishing rod noticeably. I like as light a reel as I can get, okay? There are some reels in the market which puts the weight forward. Now, the one that Abel made with it that way down and forward doesn't work. Because the fulcrum point doesn't work on the fishing rod under your hand.”

“If it's close, what is the Dutch guy that made something like that?”

Ari ‘t Hart

“Yes. Ari had some that were like that. CFOs (reels) are what I use. Yeah, look at it. See? Tim Abbott made these reel feet for me. And we made, I don't know, I bought probably eight or ten. I know, I bought ten of them on my CFOs. And I like CFOs, well, with my two weights, I have an 8.3 foot 2 weight that weighs two ounces.

And at Nelson's, I sold four because it was blowing 30 miles an hour and we could still cast into the wind. So these guys couldn't buy it fast enough. At the bamboo meeting, Nelson was going to buy one. And I said, you don't need it, you have a 3 weight. And he says, oh, yeah. I said, you're right. He says, I would fish a 2 weight three or four or five times in the park. And he said, that's all. So, yeah, no, I really don't. But, God, I would really love to have that.”

I mailed you once and I asked you if you could build me a rod. But you said, oh no, no, no, I'm 76 years old.

“I don't know how long I can do a rod. I have three years work in front of me.”

“...Alan Schwartz is one of my clients. And he bought a 6 weight. And he called me up twice this summer. Do you know anything about O’ Dell Spring Creek?”

Yeah, in Montana, where Tom Morgan used to guide as a boy (Ed: when his parents owned the El Western motel).

“Well, this guy gets to fish on it every day. He has a ranch up there. And he said, Leon, this is the rod. Per and I have fished with them on there, actually. And he goes, this is the rod that I use for all of my big fly fishing over there. And with the big tip and with the light tip, I use it on all my small flies because the fish are so big.

And he says, it fishes those size 16s and 18s just fine with that light tip. And he says, I'm fishing those number 8 rubber body or foam body things with all the fuzzy and rubber legs with the 6. And he says, it casts them into the wind. It's long and short. I love it.”

“You know, it is the perfect rod for if you were to fish in New Zealand. It would be.”

New Zealand has been on my bucket list for like at least 30 years now. But I got a family with young kid.

“I had the same. Well, Nelson wanted me to go. You know, some of those other guys wanted me to go. And I said, I can't afford that kind of a trip. I just can't. You know, it's just. And besides that, and then a guy bought a couple. And he says, look, we can camp. Nelson has a truck that I can camp out if I want. But I said, just to go and hire a guide and stuff, it's still more money than I can expend. You know, I don't have. How do I want to say this? My retirement as a school teacher is not very much. So if I don't have these fishing rods, I don't get to play. Well, we talked about that actually one time. But my wife goes, I don't want you to go there without me. I'd love to go. You've got two people to play.”

5) Q: You are one of the few makers using micro ferrules. Tell me what these ferrules do to a rod from a rod designing standpoint.

“Oh, they're really important. Number one, they take weight out. Number two, if you take a piece of metal that's two and a half inches long and you have a flexible piece on either end, that's not only adding weight, but it's adding stiffness. But it's also changing the way the bend point is where the end of the bamboo starts. It wants to break a lot easier. And I've got a whole bunch of pieces of where I tried to make it. You know, I'm a tester. I like to push things to the limit and see where it'll go. Well, as soon as you go to a short one, the rod just about bends on a straight, smooth curve instead of starting and stopping on the bend. So get rid of those heavy, straight things and get some flexible ones or close to flexible. So if you look at the curve. The flex curve, it's almost a continuous curve. It doesn't even show flat.”

Why do you think that so few people use these ferrules? Is it more expensive?

“They're the same price. I mean, they still cost 75 bucks a piece from Bailey Wood. But they are very hard to dress really well. It's a lot more tricky to get it really well fitted. You got to spend the time. And that's part.

I think that most of the guys want to push their fast, the rods too fast instead. The other thing is, I have, this is a good hand. And when I was 15, I got shot. So I have a paddle with this thing. So these rods are almost made with one hand. So I have, it takes me a little bit more time. But while I'm doing it, I make sure that I'm going to call it. I enjoy the job. You know? In fact, it's pretty hard for me to sell a fishing rod. There are some rods that I got made. I am just not going to sell that rod. I just love it. I'll make another one.”

“... you know, I'm a tester”

“Well, you know, there's a bunch of other stuff that goes along with those. I put, I made two rods about 25 years ago, blanks. There were seven and a half foot three piece solid rods. One of them I had the ferrules on and I had the big old ferrules and the standard reel seat. Okay, I'll take the other one and put the micro ferrules on and the little tiny guides and see what it did. Because the original rod was seven and a half or six weight. And, and to be honest, it was not a nice taper.

It was, you could cast it very well, but it wasn't a fast line rod, you know, a lot of flicks. So the light one weighed three quarters of an ounce less instead of taking a six weight, it became an absolutely delightful five weight. I mean, it changed it that much. And it was three quarters of an ounce lighter, the same amount of reel seat, the same length rod, the same, same taper on the bamboo. And the bamboo basically weighed the same section to section. So it really changed the feel of the rod. It increased the line speed.

Now, I don't know when you cast, but I'll lay 40 feet of line out on the ground, cast it to the back, cast it to the, to the front. So I have one time, one stroke, ground to ground, and you can measure how fast that line speed is with that distance, you know. That's just a mathematical problem, like in time. And it's surprising how much faster you can cast with that.

Well, here. Here is a rod that I found. I didn't know that I still had it. And this is six foot and it's got too much cork on it, but I made this in 1990. So, this is old. And I found it in a cardboard tube and it was for a three weight. And this, all these dark spots on there were mold.”

“... So, I changed this. I took the guides off of the tip. It was for a three weight and at 30 feet, it had an 18 inch loop and it was, I'm going to call it sloppy. You know what I mean? So, I took those guides all off, put all my little tiny guides on. It became a racehorse five weight. I mean, I couldn't believe what it did. But, you know, I had number two guides right up by the tip top, an oversized tip top, because I thought in those days that I could get more distance. Bigger was better.”

Tom Morgan also said, wrote many times, smaller guides is better. You got less line slopping, hitting the walls of the rod.

“In fact, he (Tom Morgan) asked me, Per and I stopped there just before he passed away. The year before. And he says, “tell me about your tip tops, Leon”. And I said, I want it the lightest I can get. “Oh, you're one of those smart guys”. I just loved it. That was a really a big compliment. Because he was a great, great designer.”

6) Q: What is your favorite fly fishing destination and what makes it so special?

“Wow. That's a good question. I like the Henry's Fork, but there's a lot of good out west streams. So that's, I like fishing in the mountains and I don't really particularly care of a specific location if the fishing is nice. And to me, I don't need a lot of people around. I like to have fish that are pretty good size, 15 inches. I don't like to catch a lot of little guys.

Like this summer, my son took me up into the mountains in the southwest corner of Colorado, a little town of Creede. It's a big park with just a few roads in it. And the creeks were 10 feet wide and knee deep and were catching 15 to 18 inches on dry. That was lovely. And doing it with my family, that's special. Or friends.”

Have you been out in Europe to fish?

“No. I was actually in Ireland and I did actually fish there in Ireland on some of the locks. But that was with a graphite rod because I was traveling. And they wanted me to fish long dibbling. Is that what they call it? Well, they had, no, this was with three or four flies. You cast it downwind and wiggle it up. Well, not my type of fishing, but okay.”

7) Q: What dish or food can we wake you up in the middle of the night?

“None. It's not. No.

In the morning, I like to have just a simple breakfast of eggs and bacon and bread or oatmeal I'm not into, what do you want to call it? Fancy food. However, I really enjoyed eating at Nelson's and some other nice restaurants around. So, you know.”

“Simple breakfasts are fine”

You like your sleep?

“I like my eight hours. And I always have. I like traveling around. Simple breakfasts are fine for me.”

8) Q: How would you like to be remembered?

“As a nice man. Yeah, you know, I don't try and sell myself, if you will, or my business. I don't, you know, if you find out about me by a friend, that's fine. You know, I'm a word of the mouth kind of a guy. For a while, I was doing some stuff online and that situation didn't work out for me. So, I've just kind of been, and they're still buying as fast as I can make them or faster. So, I'm fine.”

The same question I asked Per, is there someone who could be your successor, so to speak?

“Okay, I have answered a lot of questions for Chris Vance. I have answered a lot of questions for Mike Lobel. Mike is kind of a little unknown kind of a guy in West Yellowstone. He's been making rods for about five years. He does a nice job now. He's there. He's been to my house many times. We've talked in the wintertime. He's a fishing guide in the summer. You don't get to see him, okay? But in the wintertime, we talk once every week or two when he's working.

Jack Coyle in Florida, I have answered and talked with him. We've spent a lot of time together down there as well as out west. And then I've had a young man, well, a young man, he's 50. He's in my shop and has built a couple of rods in here. And he knows exactly what to do, although he's an emergency surgeon with three students in college right now. So he's not building, but he's going to be back into it.”

“I have a son in Cadillac, Michigan, who doesn't, well, he's a good fly fisherman, but he likes walleye fishing better. He's got my old walleye boat, but his kids like fly fishing, so we'll see if they step up. Who knows? I have a son in Colorado that is working on his doctorate. I have a daughter that lives here in town, and she has two kids. And they're not, he's into cars and she's into dance, so they're not going to follow up.

So I hope that one of them takes over, but I have not been, I'm going to call it under the basket, if you will. If they have a question, my buddies, no problem. I want them to have a good fishing rod when they're done.”

9) Q: Final question. Where would you fish if it was the last day you would be able to fish?

“Man, that's a tough question, because, you know, at this point, I have caught fish, so many fish everywhere. I don't know. Are you familiar with center pin float reels? Yeah, the traditional English style of fishing. We use that here in Michigan a lot, okay, or in the Midwest. I designed one, the first one made in this country. And I don't know if you've seen anything on them or not. Go ahead and look them up, okay? I sold a hundred of them 20 years ago, all handmade.

And I caught, between my son and I, we probably caught 5,000 steelhead, literally. So, you know, I catch trout every, like this summer on our creek, I got three, one night that were 16, 19, and 23 inches on my three-way, on dry flies. You don't get any better than that, you know? I mean, and there were still fish feeding. I walked away. I said, honey, I don't need any more. I had a glorious night.”

“... And then I have another, a buddy that has a cottage up the creek, and he just bought a rod shop to build rods. However, he hasn't set it up to run it yet. But he will be under my arm.”

Well, I think we covered all the questions.

Is there anything you would like to tell, or let the world know that there's something they should know?

“Well, yeah, if you can get one, better buy one. You know, designing a fishing rod is not as easy as you think. And my nine foot four weight took me seven tries. My eight and a half foot three weight only took me three, but I had an eight foot three weight before that.

You know, and I don't think people realize how much design time, because each one of those rods took me 40 to 60 hours. 60 on a three piece, 40 to 45 on a two piece. That's a hell of a lot of time. And design time.

So, you know, good rods, well designed, to me have to cost, because there's a certain level of experience and expertise, what do you call it? And design time that go into it. And you got to pay for that.”

“... each one of those rods 

took me 40 to 60 hours...”

People ask why pay so much money for a bamboo rod? I tell them, you just don't pay for the rod, but also for all the hours and years the maker spent to get at the point where he is now.

“And the good ones are hard to come by. You don't find good fishing rods, really, really high quality casting rods around everywhere. They're not around every corner.”

“And when I was making those old fiberglass rods, I cast every night. And this sounds crazy, but I would take the electric drill, clamp them and spin the tips of them to thin them out with it spinning with sandpaper to create a rod that I like better.

And people don't realize how much you can change a rod by just doing a little bit of tape or change and changing the weight of the guides and the finish and all that other stuff. Like my fishing rods get one coat of varnish that's sanded down flat and then one more coat and that's it. You know, they're very thin varnish on those.”

“And it's hard to make them nice and dead flat that have good edges on the corners. The corners are the critical part. That's where the varnish wants to be the thinnest. And so you don't see very many bumps and wrinkles and stuff on them there. That's the hard part to get a nice finish on them.”

“And if it wasn't for him (Per Brandin), I wouldn't be making a hollow rod today. And of course, of the book by Hoagy. Yeah, between those two.

I called Hoagy a while ago. Well, when did I do that? Probably three years ago. I said, Hoagy, I just got to call you and tell you. I said, you have made a really significant part of my life, although you didn't realize that you did. I said, I just want to say thank you. And we had a really nice visit after that, you know. And I mean, I had seen him at some of the shows and stuff, but it's different with all those people around than it is just being able. One on one. I saw him last March. Yeah, I saw him last March and he didn't look really healthy. He's lived a wonderful life.”

“So, you know, because where I was raised is very rural, or it was our town, town had like even right in downtown on Main Street, there was a Chevy dealership and a Ford dealership. You know, and a little tiny, tiny stores all around. That's all changed and that's all got fancy and big time. But it was country I mean all farms around us.

“... we didn't have much”

And we didn't have much. In fact, when my when I was five years old, my aunt, we were at the local gas station, and Mrs. Julie I was playing with this fishing rod and this is Julian the owner said, Leon, would you like that rod, and it had a, it was a casting rod with a green Hornet Bronson reel, a plastic handle that held the rod and a steel rod junk, you know, and she says would you like it and I said yes, and it said 3.95 on it. I don't have any money... And my aunt was there and Mrs. Julian said to my aunt, you can have it for 2.50 Elizabeth.

So, I got that. And it didn't have line on it so my dad gave me some line. And old daredevil spoon to cast in the yard. I wore the paint off of the outside of that thing sitting in a wagon casting in the front yard, every day after working in the garden. We didn't have much you know, but I used it I just love deficient thoughts.

You know, all those books from the library. You know, Ray Bergman and Ted Trueblood and all of those were so good for me. I mean just as fast as I could get them. I would read them.”

So, well, Leon, thank you very much for your time.

“And Jay, thank you for the opportunity.”

Here are a few pictures of Leon's incredible work.

Thank you Nate Stansfield of Freestone Vintage Tackle for allowing to use these pictures!

My other Q&A's:
1) Q&A with Chris Barclay
2) Q&A with George Minculete

3) Q&A with Edoardo Scapin

4) Q&A with Hoagy Carmichael

5) Q&A with Jorge Trucco

6) Q&A with Per Brandin

7) Q&A with Jack Dennis

8) Q&A with Charles Jardine

9) Q&A with Christopher Rownes

10) Q&A with Leon Hanson

11) Q&A with Joe Messinger Jr.

12) Q&A with Mike Valla