Fly fishing and more: December 2023

My Q&A's started as an idea to interview some of the memorable people I've met in fly fishing, both online as well as offline. Rather than a true interview I decided to keep it simple by asking a few Q&A's.

Joe Messinger Jr. is one of those monumental names in fly fishing. I've been fortunate to call Joe a friend since 1994. I ‘ran into’ Joe in the early 90’s after reading his two articles he wrote in 1991 for (now defunct) American Angler magazine.

Joe is closely linked to his father’s pioneering work with deer hair flies, the Messinger Bucktail Frog being the most recognised fly. But also with deer hair trout flies like the Irresistable.

1) Q: So did your articles you wrote for American Angler magazine back in 1991 result in a lot of interest how to tie the flies your dad pioneered?

“There was a few articles in some of the outdoor magazines, like Sports Afield or Outdoor Life or whatever, from the late 80s, I should say, probably from 1985, I don't remember exactly, that they contacted me. But it probably wasn't until I went out to Mountain Home, Arkansas, to the First Federation of Fly Fishers Conclave that I had ever been to.

There were some fly tiers out there, you may be familiar with some of them. Did you ever know of Tom Schmuecker, who had a Wapsi Fly? Yeah, well, he was a really good fellow, unfortunately he passed away. But there were a group of fellows there that were bass fly tiers fellow named Jimmy Nix, Billy Munn and Dave Whitlock and a couple others that were curious about the frog.”

“It was always kind of a mystery, the fly tiers, how Dad mostly did the legs how he did that. How Dad tied the legs on the frogs, the system he used there. And they couldn't quite figure it out, they'd get some of these frogs and dissect them and try to figure out.

Well, (Jimmy) Nix somehow got my phone number and called, back in the 80’s, and they would get together to figure them out. Well, I just done a home made video on tying the frog. I sent him a copy of the old VHS video. And I don’t think anybody ever tried to tie the frog after that. The mystery was over…”

“... couple others that were curious about the frog ...”

“I wrote the articles in (American Angler) in 1991 and that didn’t stimulate a lot of people to get in touch with me necessarily. Those articles I wrote probably been copied and used. Well you mentioned Mike Valla’s book (The Founding Flies) there and he had copies of the articles so lot of the information he got was from that.

My objective really wasn’t to, I didn’t have any illusions about making a lot of money off of fly tying. My dad died in 1966, he was 74. He was born in 1892 and he really pioneered a lot of things in fly tying. He was pretty well known, throughout the country and beyond. And people would kinda forgot about him. They even claimed some of the flies like the Irresistible as being their pattern. So that was about the only thing I hoped for and that worked pretty well. I think most people that are interested in tying deer hair (flies) know about dads.”

It shows people were curious how the frog was tied originally, but it’s still a lot of work no matter how you tie it.

“Haha I’ve often said I wished dad would originate something like an elk hair caddis, it would have life a lot easier for me. I wouldn’t have to sit down to three hours to tie a frog. But you have to kind of think back in time to maybe appreciate his creativity. You know all the information we have now on fly tying, that wasn’t there then. So it was just a product of his imagination and creativity.”

“... system he used is completely unorthodox”

“...as far as I know, you can’t say for sure, like Henshaw and a number of people tied with deer hair back even prior to dad. But they spun the deer hair on to separate the colours radially, they didn’t do that laterally. If you wanted a dark back and a light belly, they weren’t doing that. Of course, they do now with stacking. He figured that out and the system he used is completely unorthodox, it’s not anything like spinning of stacking deer hair. I think you probably understand kinda how I did that.

He started tying some resemblances of the frog, a deer hair frog, prior to World War 1. He was in the army during WW1 in France, when he got back, he had a war injury. That was the time he tied frogs in earnest there and no doubt they evolved. At least in the early 1920’s he was doing that, nobody else was doing that, separating colors laterally.”

2) Q: Everybody probably knows your father was Joe Messinger, so well portraited in Mike Valla’s excellent book ‘The Founding Flies’. Was (getting into) fly fishing for you as obvious as we might think?

“Well I was, I think most boys, like your son he’s a good fly tier already, tried to emulate their dad at least in the early ages. In your teens that’s different, you want to get out on your own. I can’t ever remember not tying some form of a fly, probably when I was 4 or 5 years old. Dad had a little shop in the basement of our house, just a corner of a basement, partitions off where he tied flies.

And I was down there all the time with him. Had a little desk there people would come to the house there to buy flies and I would move my desk out, had a door on the shop there. I set the desk up outside, right by the door and I'd tie flies, wind some feathers and hair on a hook. And it looked much like a fly, yeah, at 5 or 6 years old. I'd see somebody coming, I'd beat it down the stairs and sit there and tell them they had to buy one of my flies for a nickel, before they could get in to buy Dad's flies. I think it's called extortion, I'm not sure…”

“... but I always tied flies, I'll be 80 here in January and still enjoy tying flies. I've got about 10,000 flies I don't really need more for myself. Yeah, I enjoy doing that but that's maybe an answer to your question.”

Did you ever, let's say, resent that your father was so good at tying?

“Yeah, probably not it was just something, it's an everyday part of your life I don't know how old you are before you really start. There's an old saying about when I was 16 years old I couldn't figure out how my dad could have lived so long and be so dumb. And by the time I was 21, I couldn't figure out how he got so smart in 5 years. He's just kind of mature, but I never thought my dad was dumb but I just, it was a thing.

The article I wrote about the frogs, I think I was 12 years old and he caught a really nice bass on a frog at a lake, it's a big lake but it's about 50 miles from our home. I guess that's the first I really thought of him as something other than just a thing he made and sold to make part of a living.”

“... and then he died when I was 22 years old and I don't know if I thought he was immortal or what But he had a lot of health problems. He was injured in the war, he had stomach troubles and he had ulcers and surgeries on that, but he always recovered. When he died, there was a loss of course a bad surprise. Because I'd see him get pretty sick off and on but then he recovered, he got back in time flies and all. So that's when it kind of set in that that was the end of his fly tying so I was the only one left.”

Did you feel obliged to continue your dad’s work?

“Yeah, I always wanted to I liked doing things with my hands I guess I got that from Dad. He did a lot of things other than fly tying. He did gunsmithing, he could take nothing and make something out of it. He was really talented mechanically, working on cars and I picked up on that from him.

After Dad died, I was going to college one year and he died, I had to work the next year I went back a year later. And just about starved to death I had no money, so I thought, maybe Dad always said well he always liked a little money to tie his flies. I tried, so that was a part of it trying to generate something there income wise.”

“... about starved to death I had no money ...”

“...but for the most part It was just something I wanted to keep alive that he did. I never had any delusions about making a lot of money. I never had made a lot, sell a few videos, sell a few flies but I built houses for a living.

There's a handful of people like Lefty Kreh and Dave Whitlock that has made a living just from fly fishing and tying flies. It's kind of like movie stars, for every big star there's a thousand others that are just struggling trying to make something.

And I guess I never really thought of it that way, I have a contract with Umpqua they tie the frogs. A good year I might make a thousand or twelve hundred dollars for the year, that's about it. It's a wonder that they still tie the thing because even in production time it takes a long time. But I've had the contract for probably thirty years.”

3) Q: We both have been in this sport for a long time. What are in your view the three most game changing developments in fly fishing?

“I think graphite fly rods would have to be number one. Do you fish bamboo or have you ever fished a bunch?”

I fish all three, I enjoy fishing with graphite, fiberglass, as well as bamboo

“Well, when I was growing up really Bamboo was about it. A few companies, they've even made some steel, true temper made some steel fly rods. They were pretty bad, even being steel, the action was very slow. My understanding of the of the genesis of fiberglass rods Was that during World War II they made Whip-head handlers for jeeps. For radios, you know, on jeeps and on military equipment.

And some GI was looking at them and thought, you know, that looks like a fishing rod so they cut one of them off and put some guides on it. I don't know if that's absolutely true or not but it sounds reasonable. I know you really didn't see much about fiberglass rods until the 1950s there somewhere I think, perhaps the late 40s I'm not sure.”

“... like Leonard, Dickerson and Payne ...”

“But, you know, the bamboo rods, especially after World War II there was a whole plethora of Bamboo rods that were made in Japan they just weren't very good. Just the handful of rod makers here in this country, you know, like Leonard, Dickerson and Payne and so on made really good quality rods. Even Orvis then, they were pretty small business back then.

The graphite rods, I think everybody has, I know there's a lot of people that are dedicated to bamboo fly rods and that's fine, I certainly appreciate the craftsmanship in them. The amount of work that goes into them and the beauty of them, but in my opinion they're fairly limited as to what you can do with them.”

“I have an old South Bend Bamboo rod, it's a nine foot rod for an eight weight line that dad bass fished with and I restored it here some years ago. I live on about a 14 acre lake and it's good bass fishing. I thought, well, I'll take this thing down and see how it casts and after being accustomed to fishing with graphite I was amazed at how slow it was. You really had to slow your cast stroke down. Yeah, you could make a back cast eat a sandwich before the line straightened out It seemed like. But there again, that's what I grew up with.

Dad did some rod repair, he didn't build fly rods from scratch. People would bring, you know pretty much all bamboo rods back then were three-piece rods. Some two-piece rods but some bring one in and the mid-section was a broken deal. They weren't good rods and I'd say, well, I can't do anything with that and they'd say, well, throw it away or do whatever you want.

“... I really didn't have a graphite rod until probably 1990 ...”

Well, we'd keep the pieces and finally give enough of a variety of rods where we had three sections that were okay and put new ferrules on them and guides. That's what we had for fly rods. I have one here that has my name on it, Dad wrote it in 1956. So I was 12 years old then. That's all I had but I really didn't have a graphite rod until probably 1990, I had some fiberglass rods.”

“But anyhow, I'd say I started out with the graphite rods and, well, the media information that we have now, The videos on YouTube and what not about fly fishing and casting instruction and all that didn't used to be. If you didn't know somebody who was pretty good at fly casting 50 years ago you could read a little bit about it but it was a lot more difficult to try and learn. Ignorance is bliss you'd think, well, you're doing okay but in comparison I think that's made a big difference In developing fly fishing, fly casting and what not.”

“...the other thing I think is access to fishing destinations. You know, I've been at this for a long time so I've kind of seen the evolution of it. Even at Dad's time you know, now we're fishing in in West Virginia, let's say you get on an interstate in your 300 horsepower car and drive down to a stream somewhere an hour and a half or two hours away. The evening you get back in the car and maybe you've got to drive a country road for a little while.”

“...well, back at Dad's time to go somewhere that was 100 miles away was an all-day trip because dirt roads, old cars. You had probably three flat tires on the trip and it wasn't that you just get out open the trunk and change the tire. You had tire tools you had to get out, take the tire off the rim and put a hot pack on the tube put everything back together.

“... a trip to New Zealand or whatever would be like going to Mars ...”

So, it was a trip and conversely, you didn't just go and stay for a couple hours and then turn around and come back. You know, you stayed all week there so you learn more in a shorter period of time than if you just make a few trips and fish a little bit in the evening.”

“But also, you know, I didn't see there wasn't anybody offering fishing trips to Belize or Christmas Island. Even within the country, mostly If you lived in the eastern part of the United States you didn't get out west very much. Not very many people did certainly some, but it was mostly the New England states fishing in Maine, Vermont or New Hampshire you know, that was a big trip for you.

But now, with all the information about other areas and other destinations in the world that are available. They're reasonable you can go and plan a trip and go to Cuba fishing for bass or whatever.”

“...well, you know, sometimes I realize how old I am but sometimes, if somebody talks about 1970 it doesn't seem very long ago. It was 53 years ago and I forget that sometimes. But even back then, you know a trip to New Zealand or whatever would be like going to Mars, pretty much.

In the variety of fly rods that are made from graphite there's a whole plethora of them where there didn't used to be it probably started out with trout rods. But the information that's available that you can learn about not only fly fishing, but other places and the ability to go to those places.”

4) Q: Same question but in fly tying.

“I think materials are the biggest thing, all the synthetic materials they have now. That weren't available, you know really, I don't know, 30 years ago or so. That's changed things quite a bit.

And not only that, but there again the information, books and the videos out there, you can look on YouTube and find just about any fly you want to tie with instruction, and it's well done.

Before, we bought fly time books and some of them weren't very good and you try and follow it. But when you can watch somebody do something and stop it and go back I think that's helped an awful lot with fly tying.

As far as learning but the time materials that makes a big difference. But anyhow, I don't know if that's a very good answer.”

5) Q: Describe your ideal day of fishing? Destination, species, alone or together with someone.

“I would say I have always enjoyed float fishing. You know, on a pretty river or even out in the boat on a bass lake. At this point in my life, I've got some back troubles that doesn't allow me to wade a stream anymore. But even when I was young a few times out west and even back here, some of the smallmouth streams we used to fish, we'd take a john boat and sometimes camp overnight, go halfway down through a section of river. But a float trip on a good river, either trout fishing or bass fishing would probably be my favourite thing to do.”

“...not that I didn't like wading streams, but you covered so much more territory in a float fishing trip. Some say, well yeah, you pass up a lot of trout. Well, some people are under the impression that trout or bass for that matter are just clear throughout the stream. As you know, that's not true. There are certain things that are an attraction for fish. If you don't know those places if you're not that familiar, then you may fish some dead water all afternoon and wonder why you're not catching anything. Where somebody a half mile downstream is doing pretty well.

So a float trip allows you to cover enough water, yeah maybe you pass over some trout or fish, I should say. But you also have the opportunity to fish places where there are fish holding. That changes with the seasons and a lot of variables there so that works pretty good.”

“I always enjoy fishing with a friend, It's a little different feeling when you're fishing alone. But with a friend you can swap ideas and companionship, that's a big part of it I think. Sitting and watching the stream and talking about how to swap some ideas, but also fishing alone, a little different feeling there.

My dad would always, he was fishing with somebody He always wanted to make sure they had the advantage if it came to maybe a place to fish on a river. Or if he knew there was a water somewhere.

“... often kind of daydreamed about going to Labrador”

He would always put them there and I guess I picked that up on him and I get a lot of pleasure out of doing that If I can help somebody. Maybe I'm familiar with something they're not so I get pleasure out of that.

When you're alone, you don't have that part of it so maybe you're thinking a little bit more about tactics. Or maybe trying to learn a little bit more about why this isn't working and so on. So it's a little different thing but either way, I like fishing with somebody or I enjoy fishing alone too.”

Did you do a lot fishing with your dad?

“Oh yeah, we did a lot of that here in West Virginia. Dad never got very far from home, or at least the home state. Some people find that hard to imagine in fishing in Montana, Wyoming, up in Canada. I remember when I was pretty young, he went on a trip to New York fishing and he might as well have been going to New Zealand I thought that was really something.

But we fished a lot here. In his later years, he had a war injury he walked with a cane. He was 52 when I was born. I remember going hunting and fishing with him when I was maybe 10 or 12 years old I was old enough to be able to get around pretty good, not just a little kid paddling along. He never seemed to get tired. He had a real graceful walk with the cane, it really kind of helped him wade in streams he had a wading staff with him all the time.

As he got up into his late 60s It was more difficult for him so he fished a lake here in West Virginia called Spruce Lake. it's a 25 acre trout lake and it's right down from the highest point in the state which is nearly 5,000 feet. Which isn't so high, but pretty high for here. He and I fished Spruce Lake a lot. We'd go up and camp over and stay a couple days and just fly fishing. By then, which was in the 50s you saw more spin fishing but we did a lot of that. It was fun camping and catching fish too.

I think the last time I fished with him I was about 20, 21 years old there and we went up to Spruce Lake. He died the next year. He always went fishing on his birthday, which was June 18th.

“... You could smell it”

He died in 1966, he went up to Spruce Lake He went by himself, I don't know why. He went by himself and stayed overnight and fished on his 74th birthday. He passed away that September so he's doing pretty well. But to answer your question we fished a lot together.”

6) Q: Which food or meal can we wake you up in the middle of the night?

“Probably not too likely to wake up in the middle of the night to get something to eat but I have a few times. Oh, maybe then I don't know what the middle of the night would be if it's 3 o'clock in the morning I'm probably not going to get up I don't care a lot. But I remember at some of the fishing camps I was at maybe somebody at 5 o'clock in the morning was cooking something breakfast or some sort. You could smell it and I never have been real particular about food but the smell of bacon and eggs, something like that would be a pretty good incentive for me to get up.”

“Are you familiar with buckwheat cakes by any chance? They're like pancakes but there's buckwheat, It's similar to wheat. But it's a little different and it makes for a real thin pancake. The way they mix it up they use it with buttermilk and what not. It has just a little bit of a sour taste to it. I always had an affinity for those things. So I'd probably get up you know, if it was earlier in the morning, not there again at 2 or 3 o'clock I don't want somebody to be cooking in.”

“...it really isn't a high priority I've always thought I'll eat about anything I can get my mouth to an extent. Onions don't like me, they upset my stomach. But I can't think of too much else. Or real spicy food, I sort of inherited Dad's, not very good stomach. I don't have ulcers but I had trouble with acid reflux and what not so I kind of take it easy on some of that stuff. But that's about all.”

7) Q: Final question. Where would you fish if it was the last time you would be able to fish?

“I often thought about I have had the opportunity to fish around this country, a little bit in Canada. And that's about the extent. I never went to any exotic places fishing. I never did get to fish in New England so I always used to read about that. In the videos I've watched about fishing in Labrador for the big brook trout, either in lakes or streams.

We have native brook trout here of course but a big native brook trout would be 14 inches long. The majority of them are 5 or 6 inches or smaller in the little streams. I couldn't imagine catching an 8 or 10 pound brook trout, because of the way they fight and so on.

“... keeping in touch for all these years means a lot”

So I've often kind of daydreamed about going to Labrador and fishing for big brook trout If I knew that was going to be my last fishing trip and I had an option there going that's probably what I'd say.”

“...not to say the other places I've been fishing out west there in Yellowstone and in areas out in Wyoming, Montana and Idaho for the trout. Also fished South Georgia for largemouth bass and I enjoyed that too. We were fortunate my son and I got an invitation to go to a plantation down near Savannah, Georgia. It's called the Ford Plantation, Henry Ford owned it back in the time. It was a southern rice plantation during the Civil War and that's what they were feeding a lot of the Confederate troops.

Henry Ford has a lot of lakes on it. It's a golf course now which I didn't care about because I don't play golf. But it had some really big bass in the lakes. Jody, my son and I got an invitation to go down and fish and we did and that was something. Catching really big bass, you know, in the 10 pound range.

But if I only had one choice If I was capable of doing it, I'd go to Labrador for brook trout.”

You being Joe Messinger's son it's simply just how it is and it's something we should all remember rather than just saying, oh, it just happened, you know?

“… Well, I never tried I never had any very guaranteed piece of work delusions what I've done is pretty much just been copying things that Dad did which isn't a bad thing. I got pretty good at it, I will say that but I realise he's one that created all this stuff. He figured it out and about everything I've done it's been sort of to honour him. I hope with the flies I’ve tied people like okay.”

“Well, somebody said one time the only thing I really do anymore is the history we haven't yet learned and that may be true to an extent but like Mike's (Mike Valla) book there I started out reading just about Dad and that stuff. And then when I went back and read the whole thing, I found that there were names that I knew of but I didn't really know much about the people. But I thought it was a really good book.”

“And you know, my son Jody Is a good fly tier. He's 45 years old now and I took him with me to a number of fly tying conclaves and shows when he was really young. I think we went up to New Jersey, I think it was called the International Fly Tying Symposium. That was about three years ago and then, do you know who Chuck Furimsky is? Well, he has a fly tying reunion at Seven Springs in Pennsylvania, a ski resort down there It's only about, I don't know, 65 miles.

“... at my age it doesn't look too far forward ...”

But every year he has a reunion for people that have tied to his fly tying events and invites everyone. Every year, it's usually in April. But, you know, my son, my daughter, neither one of them have any kids and I don't think they ever will. When our time's up, Jody, there won't be any more Messinger signing the flies that Dad originated, but I hope that we've done something to encourage others.”

Joe, our friendship has continued since the early 90s and I hope we can continue it for many years

“Well, yeah, at my age it doesn't look too far forward but I've always thought I'm fortunate to have a friend like you even though we've never met. In the early days I remember you sent me a trout fly. I think I was not feeling very good and you sent me a trout fly and said I hope this makes you feel a little better. And that was special, that meant a lot to me.”

“And the fly you have sent me you know, you're a great fly tier and I don't use that term loosely, you know over the years I've gotten to know a lot of people with tying flies. And they're good fly tiers and there are some that are just a cut above everybody else and I think you fit in that category. The Humpies you sent me, I don't think I've ever seen a better Humpy. But you certainly are a talent but besides that, I appreciate you thinking of me and keeping in touch for all these years means a lot.”

“I really appreciate your interest all these years in the flies, and in me. It means a lot to me, Jay and I sure look forward to whatever time's left there for me I hope to be able to talk to you, of course, going with you again. And if there's anything I can do to help you with this or anything else, please let me know.”

Thank you Joe

My other Q&A's:
1) Q&A with Chris Barclay
2) Q&A with George Minculete

3) Q&A with Edoardo Scapin

4) Q&A with Hoagy Carmichael

5) Q&A with Jorge Trucco

6) Q&A with Per Brandin

7) Q&A with Jack Dennis

8) Q&A with Charles Jardine

9) Q&A with Christopher Rownes

10) Q&A with Leon Hanson

11) Q&A with Joe Messinger Jr.

12) Q&A with Mike Valla