My Q&A's started as an idea to interview some of the memorable people I've met in fly fishing, both online as well as offline. Rather than a true interview I decided to keep it simple by asking a few Q&A's.
There are very few bamboo rod makers as highly regarded as Per Brandin. Per has been making bamboo rods for four decades and he is acclaimed as a highly innovative maker, both in tapers as well as perfecting the hollow building technique.
He is mostly known for his quad bamboo rods, yet his hex rods are highly sought after as well. The past 15 years or so I have been following Per's work and one thing that stood out for me are the proportions of his grips.
Everybody knows I hate rods with too long grips! We're going to talk about this as it's one of my most cringing things I see on factory as well as custom built rods. Per's rods have grips that are so perfectly matched to the length and line weight of the rod.
I exchanged a few mails in the past with Per and recently we talked on the phone. Per graciously agreed to do this Q&A with me. Per preferred to talk so we arranged a Zoom meeting last week. The transcript below is as close as possible to everything Per said. There were two short connection issues so I might have missed a word or two.
So here goes the Q&A with Per!
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1) Q: You have been making bamboo fly rods for almost 40 years. What is (are) in your view the most significant improvement(s) in bamboo rod making you’ve seen along the years?
“I finished my first rod in 1984, so I may have started in 1983, because the first rod you’re much more exacting and careful every step of the way. You don’t realise that you don’t need to be exact until you’re closer to the finished product.
And I will tell you my first rod was built from bamboo out of Hoagy Carmichael’s scrap pile. He had a barrel of bamboo strips. The first rod was a Leonard 38H taper and I still own that rod. Hoagy said don’t ever sell your first rod.
“... that has revolutionized what is possible with bamboo rods...”
By far the most important thing that has happened and I am largely responsible for revolving that idea is the idea of progressive hollow cutting, all the way to the tips. That has revolutionized what is possible with bamboo rods. The way I stumbled on that in the early to mid 1980’s I went to a guy called Michael Montagne (also on my website).
His main thing was he made a rectangular section rod which is a very interesting idea. I basically disagree with lot of his theories but he was very very original in his approach. So his main idea was not to make rods that were not quads, what I mostly started building, but they were rectangular.
And they were interesting because they were coming out of the grip they were almost square and they got progressively more rectangular up into the tips. At the tip top they were, I would say, about 2.5 to 3 times as wide as they were deep. So the rod would only bend in one plane. And that was the main thing he was doing. And he was also hollow cutting well into the tips.
So he had an ad in Fly Fisherman magazine and I went to visit him. He showed me the basic procedure how he did that hollow cutting. This is different the way I got to evolve do it but it did open up my ‘oh you can hollow build tips!’. That makes sense and looking at his basic idea just on the plane ride home I figured out how to do it on my equipment with a different approach.
As soon as I got home, I built four rods with extremely hollow and with that progressive hollowing where it went from about 60/000th on an inch wall thickness down in the butt. Some of the tips I built was only 12/000th of an inch below the tip top.
And I cast those rods and everybody told me I was crazy, it would never work and if did work they would break as soon I cast them. I said, well I’m going to try and those rods are still together today. Right away, oh this gives me exactly what I was looking for.
And to me that was, and a lot of people picked up on that idea like Leon Hanson, Mario Wojnicki. And the thing with Mario I showed him what I was doing and he came up with faster and better ways to do it! And that was the nature of him, I came up with ideas and he would improve them. That was an amazing time, sharing shops with Mario.”
2) Q: You wrote in Bamboo fly rod magazine (a short lived magazine about bamboo rod making) that you were helped by Peter Phelps and Hoagy Carmichael during your early phase of your rod making (back then probably not making rods professionally?). How important is an apprenticeship for a beginning bamboo rod maker?
“Peter Phelps was the part owner of the Bedford Sportsman and lots of bamboo rods came through there so I got to see those. He had learned (to build bamboo rods) from Hoagy. And he was my introduction to building bamboo rods. He wanted me to do a slide show of him building. I agreed of he would teach me how to build bamboo rods.
.... (interest in bamboo was declining in the 1980’s) but in the 1980’s there was a seed starting to sprout, mostly because of Hoagy’s book. His book started the renaissance of people going ‘oh maybe I can do this myself’ and I would do the same with this book.
I wouldn’t say an apprenticeship like in the European style of apprenticeship is 7 years. To work closely to someone for 7 years, which was not al all the case with me. From Peter Phelps I learned the basic approach and I just followed Hoagy’s book. And what Peter gave me though was, in Hoagy’s book presents the Garrison method as if it was the bible as if ‘this is the way to make a bamboo rod and these are the ultimate tapers’, and Peter right away went to other tapers. And that kind of game me permission to, ‘oh I don’t have to follow Hoagy’s Garrison tapers and come up with my own tapers’ and which is why I did. I studied lots of rods, charted them out, which ones I liked and which ones I didn’t like.
I have a lot of respect for Garrison for those tapers, I love those rods. They are not the type of rods I usually prefer so I evolved my own tapers based on Peter’s ‘you can go ahead and do what ever you want’ and that’s the beautiful thing about bamboo that it’s very design friendly in terms of making little tiny changes.
I think (help from Peter and Hoagy) was crucial. Hoagy would call me when he was doing final planing and I would just watch him. And there was all kind of little subtle things that are sort of in the book but it doesn’t register until you see somebody actually do it. And the other one was of course Sam Carlson.
Right away I made four six strip rods and I decided the four strip rod was the way to go and I had to visit Sam Carlson. We got along because we both spoke Swedish fluently.
“... Japanese seemed to love Leonards ...”
(Back then) People were a bit secretive (about making a bamboo rod) and that was a little true of Sam because he was not really interested to making it easier for anyone. Because he had struggled through a hard life to get to where he was and he wasn’t just going to give that away.
He didn’t quite teach me but he allowed me to hang around and watch him a lot and I got to see a lot. He did teach me how to make ferrules and how to square the ferrules for square rods, some of the subtle things. But Dana Gray took over from Sam and that was a real apprenticeship. Dana really learned in great details, step by step, exactly how Sam did every little piece of the process. I just learned a little bit and went off on my own.
I didn’t really have apprentices myself. Erik Peterson would say he was my apprentice but he really wasn’t. He worked with me but wasn’t not that long. And that was not a good experience for me, it was the worst year I had financially and I think I gave away too much. I have lots of people ask me and because it’s a losing proposition for me.
I’ve seen it with other makers, somebody would come and learn from someone, they would learn for six months and they’ll go out on their own because they figured out how to do it. And you’re left with the work you should have done.
“Most of the makers that I think that are
good have some background in art”
And it’s a rare thing, if you look at the rod makers out there, there are thousands of makers and how many of them really stand out where there’s really something distinctive, has a character, has a personality and has a history behind it? Not many (it takes many years to develop your own style).
One of the beautiful things I’ve watched is the Japanese bamboo rod builders. Back in the 80’s and 90’s they were largely copying American style, especially Leonard. They seemed to love Leonards. But then I watched the Japanese makers evolve their own personality, their own tradition based on the fishing that they do. And the workmanship is incredible, there are some amazing Japanese bamboo rods today that are purely Japanese style.”
3) Q: Can you describe in a few words or sentences what essence characterises your rods?
“I don’t think that’s a job for me but what would I say?... Still the taper and the subtle qualities and subtle differences from one maker to another that are primarily based in the taper of the rod, I would say that’s the most essential character of my rods. The tapers that I use, most of them are based on and inspired by somebody else’s work and that I evolve on my own.
A crucial point is also proportions. Most of the makers that I think that are good have some background in art. Mark Aroner had a background in art, Mario (Wojnicki), Tom Moran the same thing. The proportion thing is a very subtle thing too, either it’s there or it’s not.”
4) Q: The documentary ‘Chasing the Taper’ gives a very realistic view of the romantic yet harsh world of bamboo rod makers that make rods for a living. The older generation of bamboo makers that have apprenticed under great names of bamboo or worked at the famous bamboo rod companies of the past like Leonard are slowly but unmistakably retiring. How should ‘we’ make sure the knowledge of bamboo making and the tools of these aging makers are passed on to the next generations? Or shouldn’t we?...
“Well, that’s the way of the world, isn’t it?... That is what happens. People still talk about Stradivarius and try to figure out what the varnish was and nobody can figure it out and nobody can quite match and what he did and that’s kind if the way it should be I think.
“... you got rods that looked like Payne, they
weren’t really Paynes anymore ...”
My favourite rods are among old classic rods, they are almost all from the 1920’s and 1930’s, before World War II because there wasn’t the idea of efficiency of production as much.
People just took the time and attention to do the job the way it should be done. Then after WW II there was so much demand we had to find faster ways and little by little those subtle things fall by the waste side. And those things are still in those rods from the 1920’s. Some of my favourite rods are even earlier than 1920.
There are tools in museums. The Catskill Fly Fishing center preserves a lot of equipment. There’s another private museum in the Hudson Highlands that has a lot of Payne equipment and that stuff still will be around in museums.
There was an old Payne customer who I knew 30 years ago, and you know these companies Leonard would get bought by somebody and Payne would get bought by somebody after Jim Payne died. And he said something that stayed with me: ‘...you can buy all the taper sticks, the machinery, the silks, all of that stuff but what you can’t buy are all the hands and you can’t buy the minds that guided all of that...’. You can look at Payne rods, once Jim Payne was gone, sure you got rods that looked like Payne, they weren’t really Paynes anymore. Because without that one guy, it’s gone.”
5) Q: You are one of the most respected bamboo rod makers around. Do you have anyone, maybe your children, who will take over your legacy and keep on making rods that characterizes that typical Brandin style?
“I have no children and if I had children, I couldn’t have been a rod maker because financially rod making is… You know you can’t pay for children going to college, school and all the rest of it. The rods are my children.
One guy that is continuing, and I’ve showed a number of people my hollow building system, like Leon Hanson, of course Mario and I’ve showed it to Chris Vance from Montana. And Chris is the closest to continuing my style of rod building, but at the same time he is an artist himself and wonderful craftsman so he is evolving his own personality and style incorporating my basic methodology. Which is that should be. He shouldn’t be building my rods, he should be building his rods. (….) His rods makes me proud because I know Chris and his rods are really great. It absolutely makes me proud to see that.”
6) Q: Your rods have a, for bamboo fly rod measures, big following in Japan. What makes Japanese customers different, besides being very humble, from say American customers?
“You sort of said it already (appreciation of workmanship, details, proportions). In the Japanese culture they have much more appreciation for subtle qualities and craftsmanship and much more so than Americans. Not all Americans, but Americans in general just don’t have that appreciation for history of craft (…) The Japanese are much more appreciative for the work that goes into something like a bamboo rod.
(about the making industry moving out of America) ..... Somethings are starting to move back in. My wife and I made a tour of the L. S. Starrett Company in Athol, Massachusetts and the micrometers, calipers and many precision measuring things were all made by L. S. Starrett Company in Athol, Massachusetts.
They are still in business doing the things largely the way they have for 80 years. If you look at the tool rooms, full of lathes and milling machines like the one I have. And also some very modern machines of all sorts, it was remarkable to see that. And there is little bit of that coming back to domestic production again (…)
I personally would gladly pay five or six times the price for an American made, like a (….) I’ve tried the Chinese made ones, they just doesn’t measure up.”
7) Q: What is your favorite fly fishing destination and what makes it so special?
“Well, I have several places I go. The Catskill mountains in New York, especially the Beaverkill, the eastern and western branches of the Delaware. They have an emotional tide to me because there I started fishing there when I was in my early teens. And they are just beautiful waters and have remarkable good fishing.
The other destination, I’ve been going out to Montana also since I was about 12 years old. We started going out with my family to Montana and Wyoming. In Montana now has become overrun with people. Places I used to grow up fishing like the Madison river, now there are hundreds of drift boats every day. It’s like crazy! I don’t fish places like that (anymore).
“... Ikea meat balls are not bad ...”
My wife is a rabid fly fisher, she loves fly fishing, she is a wonderful fly fishing partner, we basically hike up the high country in Montana and Wyoming and we fish little streams nobody ever heard of. And you find some remarkable fishing that way. And you think those little streams will have just small fish, not true! It takes a lot of work, looking at maps. But you are there always by yourself, often fishing places that nobody else fishes or maybe gets fished twice a year.”
(About my experience with fishing in Montana where most fished right next to their cars) “Not all Americans fish near their six packs, it seems like most actually!”
8) Q: Describe your ideal fishing day (type of water, species, alone or with a friend, etc.)
“I almost always fish with my wife and she is the perfect fishing partner. We usually start off together and we often can see each other and often not. One of the high mountain streams I talked about, I thought I lost her (…). I said I’ll see you in a little while and four hours later she still haven’t come up to meet me.
Well, there are grizzly bears around here so I better go find her. So I went back down stream and eventually found her. And she was just fine, she was just caught up in fishing. To me that’s a perfect day, fishing away from the crowds and with your favorite partner but not always close that you would get in each other’s way.
I like visual fishing. I like mostly dry fly, I’m trying to be good at sight nymphing. But I want to be able to see the fish. And that’s also true what we haven’t done lately and that’s on the flats down in the Florida Keys. You can catch tarpon casting into a channel but when you see a tailing permit that really gets your blood flowing. To me, that visual like a rising trout and nymphing trout that you can see.”
9) Q: What dish or food can we wake you up in the middle of the night?
“Probably sushi, some kind of sushi. We have this place about an half an hour drive from here and they have this roll called the ‘amazing roll’ which is mostly Hamachi, pacific yellowtail, with a little bit of hot peppers on the top and some other things. You know, I go there and the first bite is ‘..ah……’. ”
(I was expecting something Swedish) “... You know Swedish food is not great. I mean I really like Swedish meat balls, but no the sushi would more likely be the one to wake me up.”
(About the meat balls one can find at the restaurant in every Ikea) “I’ve had the Ikea meat balls maybe 20 years ago and they are not bad! They are authentic, they are not as good as I make though…”
10) Q: Final question. Where would you fish if it was the last day you would be able to fish?
“That’s easy, the lower Beaverkill in the Catskills. It’s big water, fewer people, at the right time there’s big fish. Not many fish, but big fish. And beautiful, beautiful water.
It was nice to see you and hope it was useful for you”
Thank you Per!
Update 28 April 2023:
I forgot I saw this talk Joel Doub of Tom Morgan Rodsmiths did with Per
Update 20 Feb 2023:
Just a few days after I had the Zoom call with Per, Per gave a very interesting and lengthy (3.5 hours!) talk for the Virtual Rodmakers Gathering. In this talk Per goes even deeper into about the hollow building technique, the benefits of micro ferrules and lighter tip guides.
Update 2 Feb 2023:
Per announces the ending of selling tackle on consignment due to illness.
Get well Per!
3) Q&A with Edoardo Scapin
4) Q&A with Hoagy Carmichael
5) Q&A with Jorge Trucco
6) Q&A with Per Brandin
7) Q&A with Jack Dennis
8) Q&A with Charles Jardine
9) Q&A with Christopher Rownes
10) Q&A with Leon Hanson
11) Q&A with Joe Messinger Jr.
12) Q&A with Mike Valla